Rd 13 vs WSW(away) New Years Day 7.50

[jw1739]

8 hours ago, Murfy1 said:

Joyce alarmed by Melbourne City's lack of maturity

Matt Dorman

January 1, 2018

 

Melbourne City coach Warren Joyce questioned his side's mental toughness after they crumbled to a 2-1 defeat away to Western Sydney Wanderers on Monday.

Leading through Ross McCormack's 25th-minute opener, City found themselves behind shortly after the half-hour as Wanderers struck twice in two minutes.

McCormack failed to convert a penalty later in the half as the visitors' loss of concentration resulted in a third straight defeat.

"Poor decisions let [Wanderers] back in the game and gave them two opportunities from nowhere really," Joyce told Fox Sports.

"We've got to stop giving stupid goals away.

"When we're in control we tend to take our foot off the gas.

"We're not mature enough in talking and dealing and playing those situations out. They get casual at times."

With three goals from their past four games, and a reliance on McCormack to fire, Joyce admits City's problems are not confined to defence.

"We had a lot of really good opportunities where we weren't even clever enough to have a good effort on goal," he said.

"That's frustrating, disappointing. We've got to get goals from all areas of the park."

 

https://www.a-league.com.au/news/joyce-alarmed-melbourne-citys-lack-maturity

Hope he's reading the comments on the club's Facebook page. 

[playmaker]

2 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Interestingly you are the only one who is defending Wazza.

And your question as to what else Wazza can do? My suggestion is to resign and look for employment elsewhere.

Not defending him at all.  Just pointing out that our players are stupid, that's all.

Conceding 2 goals in 2 minutes playing basically 4 CBs after we score is stupid. After this we were always going to struggle because we should have never been in this position to start with.

Hovering around the 6 yard box and not creating something or taking a shot is individual stupidity.

Wazza has got an opportunity in this transfer window to get rid of the players that aren't smart enough or just lazy.

And you can call for his head all you want but it's not going to happen, so he needs time to fix the problem that has existed for a long time at this club and if you look at the last 3 matches, we can see massive issues in attack and my opinion is that that those players just aren't good enough, to the point that their individual decisions make no sense and are stupid, which btw was exactly the problem we had last season. I point the finger at Kamau and Brattan especially with Fitzy and Mauk to a lesser degree. Bringing the ball into no man's land, holding the ball, being indirect, not taking a shot or hitting the target and not supplying the striker are all reasons why we can't score.

The whole game was garbage as a result of player stupidity and incompetence on the basic things which are things a manager can't control.

Not good enough.

 

[thisphantomfortress]

Best thing about this game was being too hungover to bother going. Joyce out plz

[Embee]

15 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Best thing about this game was being too hungover to bother going. Joyce out plz

You did miss GoatLock being Goaty though

[n i k o]

33 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Best thing about this game was being too hungover to bother going. Joyce out plz

Witnessing it live was special

[Shahanga]

If Joyce truly thinks the players “aren’t good enough”, perhaps he should start selecting the quality players at his disposal instead?

You know like Kilkenny and Carussca?

as far as I’m concerned “the not good enough” is complete bullshit. We’re playing poorly because he’s got the wrong players in the wrong positions.

[playmaker]

32 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

If Joyce truly thinks the players “aren’t good enough”, perhaps he should start selecting the quality players at his disposal instead?

You know like Kilkenny and Carussca?

as far as I’m concerned “the not good enough” is complete bullshit. We’re playing poorly because he’s got the wrong players in the wrong positions.

Agree

So who to replace with who then.

In my mind these players aren't good enough,

Jamieson 

La Rocca

Kamau

Fitzgerald 

Mauk 

Brattan

Muscat

 

[mus-28]

10 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Agree

So who to replace with who then.

In my mind these players aren't good enough,

Jamieson - had a poor start to the season but has improved. Only potential replacements would be foreign or unknown Aussies. Keep

La Rocca - Looked to had formed a good partnership with Bort, but has been sloppy recently. Handy backup

Kamau - offers little more than your bog standard fast NPL winger, has pace but no final ball. Needs to be moved on.

Fitzgerald -  behind Bort he's been our best. Probably trying too much lately due to being isolated with such a defensive midfield not giving him service. Keep

Mauk - Has struggled. Had high hopes for his ability to arrive in the box at the right time and score, but he's been below average. Unless he can play on a wing, cancel loan.

Brattan - Is a deep lying playmaker, not a #10, not a winger. Best passer at the club, needs to be played beside Kilkenny with Vidosic/Carrusca at #10

Muscat - hack. Should never have been signed if we had plans on building a succesful club.

 

 

[Shahanga]

16 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Agree

So who to replace with who then.

In my mind these players aren't good enough,

Jamieson 

La Rocca

Kamau

Fitzgerald 

Mauk 

Brattan

Muscat

 

Jamo. Disagree 

La Rocca - Jacobsen 

kamau. Good enough some times. Vidosic 

fitzgerald. Disagree 

mauk. Played in a stupid role so can’t rate. Carusca.

Brattan. You’re a hard man. I gave him back to back MoM before this week. 

Muscat. Give the kid Atkinson a run.

Left the big one off the list.

Joyce. Popovic.

[eric forman]

29 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Agree

So who to replace with who then.

In my mind these players aren't good enough,

Jamieson 

La Rocca

Kamau

Fitzgerald 

Mauk 

Brattan

Muscat

 

you've listed 4/5 of our better players this season but missed the biggest disappointment of them all Budders.

[Chris p]

42 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Agree

So who to replace with who then.

In my mind these players aren't good enough,

Jamieson 

La Rocca

Kamau

Fitzgerald 

Mauk 

Brattan

Muscat

 

 

The thing is all of those guys would walk into any other club and do fine 

[playmaker]

16 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Jamo. Disagree  hopelessly turns over the ball and is weak on the overlap with no vission

La Rocca - Jacobsen agree but 3 back maybe an option

kamau. Good enough some times. Vidosic 

hopeless, no vision no passing, no positioning, not good enough for this league. If Vidosic then we need to play narrow (just what we need)

fitzgerald. Disagree creates nothing and can't hit the target needs a rest, Budzinski 

mauk. Played in a stupid role so can’t rate. Carusca. don't know what it is, he just doesn't link going forward

Brattan. You’re a hard man. I gave him back to back MoM before this week. stops forward momentum and is too indecisive 

Muscat. Give the kid Atkinson a run. Atkinson is not good enough needs to play forward,  Delbridge perhaps

Left the big one off the list.

Joyce. Popovic. all Popa will do is get rid of half the list every season so not difference really.

With Brattan, Kamau, and Fitzy we are attacking the same ineffective way as last season and that was with Bruno as striker and with an attacking mindset.

You have to conclude that it's these players that are the centre of the problem.

[NewConvert]

6 hours ago, playmaker said:

Not defending him at all.  Just pointing out that our players are stupid, that's all.

Conceding 2 goals in 2 minutes playing basically 4 CBs after we score is stupid. After this we were always going to struggle because we should have never been in this position to start with.

Hovering around the 6 yard box and not creating something or taking a shot is individual stupidity.

Wazza has got an opportunity in this transfer window to get rid of the players that aren't smart enough or just lazy.

And you can call for his head all you want but it's not going to happen, so he needs time to fix the problem that has existed for a long time at this club and if you look at the last 3 matches, we can see massive issues in attack and my opinion is that that those players just aren't good enough, to the point that their individual decisions make no sense and are stupid, which btw was exactly the problem we had last season. I point the finger at Kamau and Brattan especially with Fitzy and Mauk to a lesser degree. Bringing the ball into no man's land, holding the ball, being indirect, not taking a shot or hitting the target and not supplying the striker are all reasons why we can't score.

The whole game was garbage as a result of player stupidity and incompetence on the basic things which are things a manager can't control.

Not good enough.

 

I can accept one or two players being stupid. Three at a stretch but a whole team? Never. I have worked for over thirty years in team environments and the worst case was three stupid people . Why were they static? why are they afraid to shoot? This comes down to training and coaching.

I have never bought into the culture complaints aired on this forum simply because of the high turn over of players. The only culture that could foster is one of transience. And I disagree that a manager can't control the basics. The things that a manager can't control are injuries, weather, refereeing and better coaches. The whole point of a team is to instill the basics. As a team manager you should not worry about the basics because it has been so well drilled into them that the players will do it instinctively. What I have witnessed is confusion, fear of the ball and a safety first mentality. This is a direct result of Wazza's training methods. You can well say let there be a clean out, let Wazza do what he thinks needs doing but the end result will be no different to when Stubbins coached the Jets. a club in disarray with low memebership and low attendance. You are right that what ever I say will have no effect but so far you were expecting a win and I wasn't.

[Shahanga]

22 minutes ago, playmaker said:

With Brattan, Kamau, and Fitzy we are attacking the same ineffective way as last season and that was with Bruno as striker and with an attacking mindset.

You have to conclude that it's these players that are the centre of the problem.

I thought the main problem with transition last year was the lack of a genuine #10 on the field (Cahill was basically a second striker). This year it’s 2 non ball playing holding midfielders and an advanced midfielder who seems to have been instructed to concentrate on his defensive role to the detriment of all else. So we can’t pass and even if we could there’s no one to pass it to.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Jamieson, Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan.

The only thing I will say is I think Brattan seems to have got the most out of Joyce being in charge. For one he has lost what 10kgs and now looks like a pro football( absolute disgrace that wasn’t dealt with last season). I would have Malik and Genreau breathing down his neck if he didn’t deliver.

In regards to Popovic actually I share your concerns. I still think he’s a better choice than Joyce, however my expectation is that CFG can do better. Would have loved them to have signed Ange for instance and hope they are talking to Ante Milicic, for one. 

In regards to Mauk I have a similar take, but I look back on his earlier stint and then I thought he wouldn’t defend. Now he won’t attack. He’s the same bloke, so my guess is it’s his instructions.

[belaguttman]

19 hours ago, haz said:

I am very confident we dont practise attacking at all during training

... or defence

[Imtellingyou]

Awful game. He simply had to made two more subs. Not sure what was his development role over there. The way his is leading, managing and motivating many do not want to be on the stands and probably even on the bench. Arzani needs mentoring, he wants to dribble and finish by himself. 

Now with negative GD and no results, he absolutely has no excuses or arguments for this setup. 

[moops]

1 hour ago, Shahanga said:

Jamo. Disagree 

La Rocca - Jacobsen 

kamau. Good enough some times. Vidosic 

fitzgerald. Disagree 

mauk. Played in a stupid role so can’t rate. Carusca.

Brattan. You’re a hard man. I gave him back to back MoM before this week. 

Muscat. Give the kid Atkinson a run.

Left the big one off the list.

Joyce. Popovic.

Pretty much, my exception is Bratten dwelling on the ball too much, but I think he isn't enjoying himself and the tactics aren't helpful either. For me he hasn't been wonderful, but he stays being impacted by Wazza's decisions.

[playmaker]

29 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

I thought the main problem with transition last year was the lack of a genuine #10 on the field (Cahill was basically a second striker). This year it’s 2 non ball playing holding midfielders and an advanced midfielder who seems to have been instructed to concentrate on his defensive role to the detriment of all else. So we can’t pass and even if we could there’s no one to pass it to.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Jamieson, Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan.

The only thing I will say is I think Brattan seems to have got the most out of Joyce being in charge. For one he has lost what 10kgs and now looks like a pro football( absolute disgrace that wasn’t dealt with last season). I would have Malik and Genreau breathing down his neck if he didn’t deliver.

In regards to Popovic actually I share your concerns. I still think he’s a better choice than Joyce, however my expectation is that CFG can do better. Would have loved them to have signed Ange for instance and hope they are talking to Ante Milicic, for one. 

In regards to Mauk I have a similar take, but I look back on his earlier stint and then I thought he wouldn’t defend. Now he won’t attack. He’s the same bloke, so my guess is it’s his instructions.

OK, just a question, all things being equal, what do you think our attack would be like with Budzinski, Carrusca, and Vidosic  playing instead of Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan?

[fensaddler]

1 hour ago, Chris p said:

 

The thing is all of those guys would walk into any other club and do fine 

This is I fear the point. Too many good players end up being mediocre for us.

[citymad]

37 minutes ago, Imtellingyou said:

Awful game. He simply had to made two more subs. Not sure what was his development role over there. The way his is leading, managing and motivating many do not want to be on the stands and probably even on the bench. Arzani needs mentoring, he wants to dribble and finish by himself. 

 

Cannot agree highly enough with this. Arzani has been at this club for three years. JVS did not rate his arrogance and laziness off the ball. His work rate as a first line denfender is still poor. He needs a coach that will teach him the importance of all aspects of the game. His desperation to show his attacking quality in his very short A league is being undermined by poor decision making of when to hold/pass/ make a run/ take on 1 v1/ shoot etc. Sadly he will be 19 soon and his time to be considered a YG is running out. BTW i still think he will leave the club. My guess would be WSW under Gombau. Some media today stating a big clean out up at wonderland due to differences with Gombau. Arzani would be a cheap pick up for them. Arzani has worked with Gombau and selected him for a camp earlier in the year. Maybe Gombau could be the mentor Arzani needs. 

[Shahanga]

41 minutes ago, playmaker said:

OK, just a question, all things being equal, what do you think our attack would be like with Budzinski, Carrusca, and Vidosic  playing instead of Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan?

Different.

a lot narrower. A lot closer to what we see from Sydney and Liverpool. Would like to see it tried at training.

to me though Brattan isn’t a 10. He needs to play deeper. You have to play genuine midfielders behind those 3 to play them in though. This could be (say) 2 of Kilkenny, Brattan and Malik.

worth a crack.

[playmaker]

5 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Different.

a lot narrower. A lot closer to what we see from Sydney and Liverpool. Would like to see it tried at training.

to me though Brattan isn’t a 10. He needs to play deeper. You have to play genuine midfielders behind those 3 to play them in though. This could be (say) 2 of Kilkenny, Brattan and Malik.

worth a crack.

And to add, I think they would be a whole lot smarter, creative and the service to Ross would be a whole lot better.

[Murfy1]

Joyce's full interview: https://www.a-league.com.au/video/ffa010118postjoycefullpresser

The key quotes:

-        “decision-making was poor, and the actual finishing was poor as well”

-        “the final pass was poor…sometimes we got in really good situations, and there ended up with not even a finish, with the poor selection of a final pass”

-        “tactically they [didn’t?] give us a great deal of problems, we solved that. We just give two goals away”.

-        “If it was confidence, you’re not able to come back and play like you did in the second half and drive the game, which we’ve done in all the last three games. The final pass or the final  finish hasn’t been there”.

-        “You make subs if you think you can change the game. We tried to make a sub to change the game. We are driving the game at the time and trying to score goals. And I thought we looked like we were going to score a goal.”

-        [after being asked about the transfer window] “You’ve got no vacancies on any roster, just like any other team in the league”

-        [apart from decision-making, are there any other concerns?] “it’s decision-making. You know, with and without the ball as well…when we get comfortable start positions we look like a well organised, well-drilled team that’s hard to play through. There’s times where we lose that concentration, and then individuals, certain individuals, make mistakes, and do things that they’re not supposed to do, and it’s costing us"

-        “There’s a lot of goals coming from people not doing small details really well”.

 

So pretty much everything that's gone wrong over the past three games or more can be explained away, in Joyce's mind, by "poor decision-making" and maybe "poor finishing"....that is all Joyce has to say about the team losing 6 games out of the last 9?

 

 

Hmm, where have I seen a coach's first few games being his best, and then things getting worse and worse after that before? Also, why does "individual errors" and "poor finishing" sound like such a familiar explanation for a long and terrible run of football?

[haz]

13 minutes ago, Murfy1 said:

So pretty much everything that's gone wrong over the past three games or more can be explained away, in Joyce's mind, by "poor decision-making" and maybe "poor finishing"....that is all Joyce has to say about the team losing 6 games out of the last 9?

Hmm, where have I seen a coach's first few games being his best, and then things getting worse and worse after that before? Also, why does "individual errors" and "poor finishing" sound like such a familiar explanation for a long and terrible run of football?

To back his comments (only a little), about 4/6 games we conceded due to brain farts out of Waz's control.

Our real problem is attack, which is Waz's fault. I dont know how we are meant to be a threat with only one player on the pitch (McCormack) who has scored 10+ goals in previous seasons. And even more so this season, he's scored all but 2 from set pieces.

[Murfy1]

23 minutes ago, haz said:

To back his comments (only a little), about 4/6 games we conceded due to brain farts out of Waz's control.

Our real problem is attack, which is Waz's fault. I dont know how we are meant to be a threat with only one player on the pitch (McCormack) who has scored 10+ goals in previous seasons. And even more so this season, he's scored all but 2 from set pieces.

 

Fair comments. And I fully agree about the attack.

 

I just feel like I've seen this movie before. I've got a theory that players make more "individual errors" under sub-par coaches. If Joyce is right, then these players should soon enough return to their first-4-games form (nearly all of these players played over these 4 games), and the team should once against be a defensive wall that can grind out results.

[haz]

13 minutes ago, Murfy1 said:

 

Fair comments. And I fully agree about the attack.

 

I just feel like I've seen this movie before. I've got a theory that players make more "individual errors" under sub-par coaches. If Joyce is right, then these players should soon enough return to their first-4-games form (nearly all of these players played over these 4 games), and the team should once against be a defensive wall that can grind out results.

I hate hearing the same excuses from coaches too. At the same time (I'm not liking defending Waz) but it is the A-League, most players skillwise are pretty shit. Majority of the players who makes these are just "Recycled" players who shouldn't even be getting game time if the league was set-up better.

[belaguttman]

12 hours ago, haz said:

To back his comments (only a little), about 4/6 games we conceded due to brain farts out of Waz's control.

Our real problem is attack, which is Waz's fault. I dont know how we are meant to be a threat with only one player on the pitch (McCormack) who has scored 10+ goals in previous seasons. And even more so this season, he's scored all but 2 from set pieces.

I agree with this, like last season, but even more so, our problem is in attack. When you score 1 goal a game then you can't afford a single mistake. There is a coaching issue though if you continue to set up the team in a way that decreases the chances of scoring more than 1 goal a game and that also doesn't allow for mistakes