haz

Who Should Stay, Who Should Go? 2017/18

117 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

We were talking last night about those old blokes at pubs that it there by themselves and drink their beers really slow. You'd know the ones, they stare into the distance and there is nothingness behind their eyes. That's where this club is sending me.

The thousand yard stare. I am starting to get it too

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Just now, KSK_47 said:

The thousand yard stare. I am starting to get it too

I got it. But with a kind off weird twitch in my left eye when I hear something odd.

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37 minutes ago, MXG said:

Only coaching staff should be sacked. All players should stay.

Yes, even under-performing Brattan and Bruce.

If CFG could scout us a new attacking midfielder for the next season would be a bonus but otherwise I am 99.99% sure that a proper coach would make "Invincibles" with our current squad this season.

Not a bad idea. Heaps this "most expensive team ever assembled, yet still failing" twaddle. I wonder how much would change if this team was led by someone other than the Suburban Used Car Salesman, the Tanned One or the Original Recipe Tanned One? You know, a gaffer who is tactically aware, a good motivator and an astute trainer. Or, in more basic terms, competent at their job.

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35 minutes ago, Jovan said:

I got it. But with a kind off weird twitch in my left eye when I hear something odd.

Like "we were unlucky"

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Considering how much talent we had at our disposal this season, there has to be a cultural problem which you could argue is purely a managerial issue but I'd say the players are more than responsible as well.

The amount of post-match rants I saw throughout the season where players would play the victim card and whinge about refereeing decisions (Kilkenny and Brattan the biggest offenders) lead me to believe we don't have the right type of playing culture at the club at all. Everyone lauds Kilkenny for his leadership but what sort of leader embarrasses the club in that fashion? (referring to post 3-3 draw against Perth last year)

Sure, it's great to have players that care but you also need to have players you can actually get behind, that people want to support. It's seriously no wonder we have no fans, our culture and identity is completely and utterly shit (if it even exists) and when you can't even capitalise on Tim Cahill playing for your club, then what's the bloody point.

It'll be interesting to see how CFG responds because something has seriously got to give.

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2 hours ago, Nate said:

Considering how much talent we had at our disposal this season, there has to be a cultural problem which you could argue is purely a managerial issue but I'd say the players are more than responsible as well.

The amount of post-match rants I saw throughout the season where players would play the victim card and whinge about refereeing decisions (Kilkenny and Brattan the biggest offenders) lead me to believe we don't have the right type of playing culture at the club at all. Everyone lauds Kilkenny for his leadership but what sort of leader embarrasses the club in that fashion? (referring to post 3-3 draw against Perth last year)

Sure, it's great to have players that care but you also need to have players you can actually get behind, that people want to support. It's seriously no wonder we have no fans, our culture and identity is completely and utterly shit (if it even exists) and when you can't even capitalise on Tim Cahill playing for your club, then what's the bloody point.

It'll be interesting to see how CFG responds because something has seriously got to give.

Out of likes but pretty much sums up exactly how i feel (only you used a lot less swearing than i would have)

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2 hours ago, Nate said:

Considering how much talent we had at our disposal this season, there has to be a cultural problem which you could argue is purely a managerial issue but I'd say the players are more than responsible as well.

The amount of post-match rants I saw throughout the season where players would play the victim card and whinge about refereeing decisions (Kilkenny and Brattan the biggest offenders) lead me to believe we don't have the right type of playing culture at the club at all. Everyone lauds Kilkenny for his leadership but what sort of leader embarrasses the club in that fashion? (referring to post 3-3 draw against Perth last year)

Sure, it's great to have players that care but you also need to have players you can actually get behind, that people want to support. It's seriously no wonder we have no fans, our culture and identity is completely and utterly shit (if it even exists) and when you can't even capitalise on Tim Cahill playing for your club, then what's the bloody point.

It'll be interesting to see how CFG responds because something has seriously got to give.

Agree, the Coaching department will be make or break next season and it needs to be done right, it's more important than the playing group itself.

A fish rots from the head, so coaches have to be proven winners and well credentialled. Be able to make hard decisions and instill a winning mentality and have a plan that backs that up. People who will shake up the mens team and change the culture and mentality of the playing group.

For me:

Head coach - the best that we can get, has a winning mentality/record and experience. Most likely someone from overseas and many names have been mentioned.

Assistant coaches - Forget this recycling of assistant HAL coaches, bring in some proven NPL winners or the like, to help instill that winning mentality and offer supporting qualities. Coaches who have been successful, but not quite the quality we are after for the head coach.

Someone like Damien Mori who has won the SA NPL for the past five years, Pappas has won something like 4 NPL Vic titles, has coached overseas and has sport science and fitness degrees as well as his FFA badges. Even someone like Mirko Jelicic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirko_Jeličić) would be a great addition, but I don't want to see more rotation of failed assistants.

CFG need to get this right and make a big statement of intent and it needs to be at all levels imho.

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Posted (edited)

Wouldn't mind seeing Kisnorbo as assistant tbh, proven leader throughout his whole career at the top level and led the youth well.

Edited by playmaker
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give kisnorbo another season or 2 as youth or womens coach. If successful he can become assistant coach. He needs a bit of time. One season at youth and womans isnt enough

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Stay

@bt50 - is a car

@GreenSeater

@jw1739 - despite his age still gives his all

@strider - but only under the cap

Go

@KSK_47 - he's offered a lot to the forum and hes probably a forum legend but I think his times up

@playmaker

@xXCiTyZeNXx

@kingofhearts2 & @kingofhearts3 - pale imitations of their former selves

On the fence

@Embee - lot of attitude problems showing through, but I think he has the raw talent.

You just wait for kingofhearts4,  hes the most legit I heard 😉

There has been some really good post this thread. Not wanting to go over too much over what has already been said,  let's imagine if these 3 coaching moves were made during the season :

-Fitzy's starting ahead of kamau

-Sorenson starting over bouzanis 

-Cahill or Fornaroli starting,  not both. 

Now those three moves alone make us such a better team.  Being an optimist,  I don't think we are that far off the top,  talent wise we have as much as any other team.  The coaching has been the issues as always with this club. If this team had a proper coach this season plus an extra cb,  we would just be as good as every other team except maybe Sydney.  When will people realise talent only gets you so far? 

 

7 hours ago, xXCiTyZeNXx said:

give kisnorbo another season or 2 as youth or womens coach. If successful he can become assistant coach. He needs a bit of time. One season at youth and womans isnt enough

I think we should've had kisnorbo coaching this season tbh,  Colazo would've had 40 assists and Cahill 30 goals if that was the case

Edited by kingofhearts
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Out : my family membership due to the battle to drum up interest in my 7 and 9yo

Colazo , Sorensen , Rose , Kamau , Malik , Caceras , Brattan, Franjic , Muscat

In : no Fucken loan players or Pensioners , new CEO and coaching panel , youngsters . 

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23 hours ago, Nate said:

The amount of post-match rants I saw throughout the season where players would play the victim card and whinge about refereeing decisions (Kilkenny and Brattan the biggest offenders) lead me to believe we don't have the right type of playing culture at the club at all. Everyone lauds Kilkenny for his leadership but what sort of leader embarrasses the club in that fashion? (referring to post 3-3 draw against Perth last year)

 

Do not want to find an excuse for the players, but we did suffer from referees this year. They had every right to raise their voice. What I had a problem with is winging during the game - Cahill, Brattan and Killkenny are the worst. Killer also winged towards his teammates quite a lot. Not cool. Still think he was important player and vital to stay. It's pure management issue, you cannot expect player to stay calm and relaxed observing what a mess his team is. Good coach should channel that sporting aggression in right direction. We have no direction.

 

 

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the most important thing is to change the coach before any decisions are made.

 

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, MXG said:

 

Do not want to find an excuse for the players, but we did suffer from referees this year. They had every right to raise their voice. What I had a problem with is winging during the game - Cahill, Brattan and Killkenny are the worst. Killer also winged towards his teammates quite a lot. Not cool. Still think he was important player and vital to stay. It's pure management issue, you cannot expect player to stay calm and relaxed observing what a mess his team is. Good coach should channel that sporting aggression in right direction. We have no direction.

 

 

Every team suffered from poor refereeing though, and every team suffers every season because it's the Hyundai A-League. The players need to get over it and control what they can control. 

My point is that management is only half the issue, you only have to look at Leicester and Arsenal as perfect examples of the impact that players with a poor attitude/culture can have on the club irrespective of the coaching quality.

Edited by Nate

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, MXG said:

 

Do not want to find an excuse for the players, but we did suffer from referees this year. They had every right to raise their voice. What I had a problem with is winging during the game - Cahill, Brattan and Killkenny are the worst. Killer also winged towards his teammates quite a lot. Not cool. Still think he was important player and vital to stay. It's pure management issue, you cannot expect player to stay calm and relaxed observing what a mess his team is. Good coach should channel that sporting aggression in right direction. We have no direction.

 

 

Aside from the weekly rotational fouling on Bruno, we were affected by refereeing in November and December after the diving hysteria, the perceived good run that we'd gotten in the first couple games and Aloisi's bullshit in the press conferences. Dont think it was by ref's being biased or cheating as such, but the unconscionable effect that happens when media speculation focuses on certain teams/players. Note that this was probably the period when we were winning.

I don't think for a second that was the cause of our poor run after December though. After that bad run in November/December we were given no better or worse a run than any other team in the comp and went through the usual what goes around comes around type stuff. The rot started when we lost the derby, and we never recovered, nor showed the spine required to get our season back to where it should have been given the talent on the list.

Edited by bt50

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Yes, we did have some attitude ("cultural") problems this season. Yes, players are accountable for what they say and do on the field - they are not marionettes with a puppeteer pulling their strings.

But these issues need to be jumped on quickly and firmly and as far as possible resolved off the field. Clearly this did not happen this season.

We had the highest total of cards of any club this season. Quite apart from that, and the continual questioning of decisions (my impression is this was less in the final few matches than earlier in the season), we managed the "Fornaroli/Fernando Diving/Theatrics" controversy rather poorly IMO, and then had to contend with "Bouzanis and the Gypsy." I don't think any of this enhanced our reputation as a club, and it probably gave some pleasure to our critics to see us subsequently collapse at the end of the season. TBH I think that if I wasn't a City supporter I would see us as having been rather a spoiled little brat this season.

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Every Football Federation is biased towards the teams with the biggest supporter base. It's a given and you cannot do anything about it. There is no secret who's the favorite FFA child in Melbourne. We just need to play better so that bias doesn't affect the result.

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I reckon the new manager might reason with Cahill that next season he should be an impact player late on off the bench. Use the World Cup and his role in the national team as the excuse

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3 minutes ago, Dylan said:

I reckon the new manager might reason with Cahill that next season he should be an impact player late on off the bench. Use the World Cup and his role in the national team as the excuse

Only if Cahill will officially retire from National team. Fat Angie has threatened Cahill this year with regards to the lack of the regular play time.

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4 hours ago, Costa said:

Out : my family membership due to the battle to drum up interest in my 7 and 9yo

Colazo , Sorensen , Rose , Kamau , Malik , Caceras , Brattan, Franjic , Muscat

In : no Fucken loan players or Pensioners , new CEO and coaching panel , youngsters . 

Are you mad? I agree with everything except for Brattan and Kamau. Loan players are fine coz we can kick them out easier 

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15 minutes ago, Inferno said:

Are you mad? I agree with everything except for Brattan and Kamau. Loan players are fine coz we can kick them out easier 

Dude, I have plenty of mates who have given up on City after last night. The criminals in charge of our club sold our soul and don't get the results to make it up. I miss Heart:(

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Posted (edited)

The biggest problem we have had since takeover is the wholesale change of the squad each season. 

So from the 2015/16 squad we had 11 players continue to this season. Bouzanis Sorensen Chapman Franjic Malik Retre Caceras Kuzi Gameiro Fornaroli and Fitzy. 

The way the cap and League is structured it's very hard to retain players long-term but we have changed excessively. IMO each season you shouldn't change more than 3 or 4 starting players. And for this discussion I regard a starting player in the best 14 or 15.

So for me our squad is fine. We need 2 starting players maybe 3. A CB a genuine 10 and a box to box midfielder. 

The goalkeeping situation needs to be resolved and Sorensen replaced. 

But apart from that all this talk of changing half the squad will result in the same chop change uncertainty we had on a weekly basis.

Now all this is irrelevant without the appointment of a capable coach. So priority 1 needs to be the coach. And without doubt that will be done. (Well even CFG can't be that inept).

Edited by Jovan
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33 minutes ago, Jovan said:

The biggest problem we have had since takeover is the wholesale change of the squad each season. 

So from the 2015/16 squad we had 11 players continue to this season. Bouzanis Sorensen Chapman Franjic Malik Retre Caceras Kuzi Gameiro Fornaroli and Fitzy. 

The way the cap and League is structured it's very hard to retain players long-term but we have changed excessively. IMO each season you shouldn't change more than 3 or 4 starting players. And for this discussion I regard a starting player in the best 14 or 15.

So for me our squad is fine. We need 2 starting players maybe 3. A CB a genuine 10 and a box to box midfielder. 

The goalkeeping situation needs to be resolved and Sorensen replaced. 

But apart from that all this talk of changing half the squad will result in the same chop change uncertainty we had on a weekly basis.

Now all this is irrelevant without the appointment of a capable coach. So priority 1 needs to be the coach. And without doubt that will be done. (Well even CFG can't be that inept).

IMO you're right in theory, but what would be your starting squad based on the contracts that carry over to include 2017/18? 

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1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

IMO you're right in theory, but what would be your starting squad based on the contracts that carry over to include 2017/18? 

Of the contracted players for 2017/18 you basically have to retain.

Bouzanis     Retre            Fornaroli 

Franjic         Caceras      Fitzy 

Malik          Arzani          Kamau 

Tongyik     Brandan       Cahill 

Muscat     Kilkenny 

Jakobsen.

 

Caceras I would sign. Brattan I'm undecided. I would try and move Muscat and Malik but if not retain as squad players. Depending on whats around Rose may need to be re-signed at LB or at least as a backup. 

So in the offseason get an Australian keeper  (Galekovic)

Another Visa centre back maybe a City loanee. The best LB available. 

A box to box midfielder to complement Kilkenny and support the development of Arzani and Genreau. 

My Colazo marquee replacement would be a bonafide #10. 

Depending on their recovery I would only retain either Kuzi or Gameiro but not both. 

So basically I would bring in 5 players. 3 would have to be genuine starting players. Then fill the squad with 4 or 5 back up journey men willing to play for peanuts. 

 

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I agree, the main improvement will come with a good coach, we don't need to replace half the squad

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On 24/04/2017 at 1:24 PM, AlbionLoveDen said:

 the Tanned One or the Original Recipe Tanned One?

This is the biggest chuckle anything associated with City has bought me in the last 5 months.

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10 hours ago, Jovan said:

Of the contracted players for 2017/18 you basically have to retain.

Bouzanis     Retre            Fornaroli 

Franjic         Caceras      Fitzy 

Malik          Arzani          Kamau 

Tongyik     Brandan       Cahill 

Muscat     Kilkenny 

Jakobsen.

 

Caceras I would sign. Brattan I'm undecided. I would try and move Muscat and Malik but if not retain as squad players. Depending on whats around Rose may need to be re-signed at LB or at least as a backup. 

So in the offseason get an Australian keeper  (Galekovic)

Another Visa centre back maybe a City loanee. The best LB available. 

A box to box midfielder to complement Kilkenny and support the development of Arzani and Genreau. 

My Colazo marquee replacement would be a bonafide #10. 

Depending on their recovery I would only retain either Kuzi or Gameiro but not both. 

So basically I would bring in 5 players. 3 would have to be genuine starting players. Then fill the squad with 4 or 5 back up journey men willing to play for peanuts. 

 

Pretty good summary. 

For mine, piss Brattan off. Agree that only one of Corey and Kuzi can be kept - for mine its Corey, he's a gun if he can get fit. Either way we should be able to sign an injury replacement for the time they are out if need be. Same goes for Brandan.

Assuming we keep Brandan, Bruno and Jakobsen, imo we go for a marquee 10 and a visa cb with the open spots, with a winger to replace Brandan on injury replacement if possible/required. I'd be more than comfortable with Martinez as our marquee.

We can prob only keep one of Rose and Muscat, and while i think Rose wins easily, Muscat is contracted so probably gets the choccies. If either of Malik or Muscat were moved on that would be a good result, but wouldnt hold my breath tbh.

At the end of the day though, the signing that counts is the gaffer. Get that right and we can go anywhere.

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3 hours ago, bt50 said:

At the end of the day though, the signing that counts is the gaffer. Get that right and we can go anywhere.

100%. Last season we let go 2 defenders whom, whilst solid, didnt set the world on fire with us yet have gone on to be first choice defenders in the best team in the country by a mile.

The personnel isnt the problem per se - sad part is there are probably 3-4 coaches in Australia which could have won the league running away with our squad/resources. 

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21 minutes ago, CityHeart said:

100%. Last season we let go 2 defenders whom, whilst solid, didnt set the world on fire with us yet have gone on to be first choice defenders in the best team in the country by a mile.

The personnel isnt the problem per se - sad part is there are probably 3-4 coaches in Australia which could have won the league running away with our squad/resources. 

I disagree with Wilkinson, he almost single-handedly turned our defence around last season and was our best defender most weeks.

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9 minutes ago, Blackout said:

I disagree with Wilkinson, he almost single-handedly turned our defence around last season and was our best defender most weeks.

Wilkinson was definitely the reason we improved last season after January and has continued this season. And Zullo who was average for us has been good at Sydney. Even Clisby who got alot of stick has been good.

It's looking more and more of a case "its us not them that's the problem".

And because so I think people need to relax with player scorn and criticisms. 

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7 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Wilkinson was definitely the reason we improved last season after January and has continued this season. And Zullo who was average for us has been good at Sydney. Even Clisby who got alot of stick has been good.

It's looking more and more of a case "its us not them that's the problem".

And because so I think people need to relax with player scorn and criticisms. 

The thought of a CB pairing of Jakobsen and Wilkinson would have made me immensely happy. Surely not even JVS could have ruined that pairing...

I think Zullo expected to float around the league like the second coming of Roberto Carlos, after his performances, he may have woken him up to the fact that the A-League may actually be his level. Not unlike a certain defensive midfielder of ours who shall remain nameless.

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Wilkinson is a gun. Certainly the best Australian defender in the league.

But we need to remember that we didnt let him go; he was out of contract, wanted to go back to Sydney to live with his family, and we had no salary cap room to give him an offer substantial enough that it was worth considering.

Barring giving him a marquee spot, the clubs hands were tied.

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1 hour ago, thisphantomfortress said:

We weighed in on the issue last night on talking city. Here is us breaking down the entire squad into stay and go

https://audioboom.com/posts/5856685-should-he-stay-or-should-he-go

How you can justify some of those "stays" is beyond me. My definition of a "squad player" is someone who can come into the team to do a steady and reliable job, probably in a two or more positions, but isn't quite able to hold down a particular starting position in his own right. Not someone who's a reject from another club and has let us down repeatedly. I'd rather see someone from the NYL/NPL squad promoted as required.

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21 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

How you can justify some of those "stays" is beyond me. My definition of a "squad player" is someone who can come into the team to do a steady and reliable job, probably in a two or more positions, but isn't quite able to hold down a particular starting position in his own right. Not someone who's a reject from another club and has let us down repeatedly. I'd rather see someone from the NYL/NPL squad promoted as required.

Sadly the three man panel means all it takes is two idiots (see their decision to keep Gameiro an Retre)

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4 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Sadly the three man panel means all it takes is two idiots (see their decision to keep Gameiro an Retre)

Seeing as JW has gone to bat for Retre several times on this forum I doubt his issue is with him. Care to enlighten us from your ivory tower there @jw1739?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Sadly the three man panel means all it takes is two idiots (see their decision to keep Gameiro an Retre)

What's wrong with Retre ? does a job would be relatively cheap and is still youngish 

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5 minutes ago, Chris p said:

What's wrong with Retre ? does a job would be relatively cheap and is still youngish 

I just feel that he's never offered enough. Looked like he might be there middle of last year but never broke through.

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13 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

I just feel that he's never offered enough. Looked like he might be there middle of last year but never broke through.

It's certainly hard to do that from the bench 

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