Who Should Stay, Who Should Go? 2017/18

[jw1739]

30 minutes ago, Embee said:

Seeing as JW has gone to bat for Retre several times on this forum I doubt his issue is with him. Care to enlighten us from your ivory tower there @jw1739?

Ivory tower? Wow, I don't think I qualify for "privileged seclusion"!

TBH, I didn't get as far into the discussion as Retre. FWIW, yes, I would keep him. Very much so. He's probably the slowest runner in the squad, but he's come in on a few occasions both at RB and as a midfielder, tackled well and held the line well. I think Retre is an ideal squad player.

IIRC the assessments that we disagree on are Franjic, Malik and Gameiro. The first two IMO just got worse and worse as the season went on and were two of our poorest performers in the EF debacle. Gameiro is an unfortunate case - as is anyone who has had a serious injury - but the hard reality of the A-League with its caps is that IMO you are foolish to re-sign a player who has had 3 ACL ruptures. 

Without re-listening, I can't remember whether you discussed Muscat as well, but I wouldn't keep him as in my estimation he's in the same basket as Franjic and Malik. Very under-performing and no reason to expect any improvement.

Of course ours are all personal opinions. In the end the club will decide what it decides.

[Jovan]

I think that's an interesting point.

What is a squad player?

For me a squad of 24 (can get as big as 29 but lets assume 24 is the number ) I would try and get 14 or 15 starting players. That is on their day at any given time they are walk up starts obviously disregarding form and fitness. Based purely on past performances over a good period of time.

That leaves positions 16 to 24. To me these are for squad players. And of these 8 spots you needs 4 or 5 senior players. Players that are servicable A League players. Malik Muscat Retre Rose etc. Then the rest filled with younger players that obviously show potential but still need refinement. Arzani Tongyik and maybe Genreau. 

For me you can't win anything with too many kids but the key is balance. Every position needs 2 to 3 clear options. Which incidentally we really have never achieved. 

Look at Sydney FC side as balance as an example. 

[Embee]

16 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Ivory tower? Wow, I don't think I qualify for "privileged seclusion"!

TBH, I didn't get as far into the discussion as Retre. FWIW, yes, I would keep him. Very much so. He's probably the slowest runner in the squad, but he's come in on a few occasions both at RB and as a midfielder, tackled well and held the line well. I think Retre is an ideal squad player.

IIRC the assessments that we disagree on are Franjic, Malik and Gameiro. The first two IMO just got worse and worse as the season went on and were two of our poorest performers in the EF debacle. Gameiro is an unfortunate case - as is anyone who has had a serious injury - but the hard reality of the A-League with its caps is that IMO you are foolish to re-sign a player who has had 3 ACL ruptures. 

Without re-listening, I can't remember whether you discussed Muscat as well, but I wouldn't keep him as in my estimation he's in the same basket as Franjic and Malik. Very under-performing and no reason to expect any improvement.

Of course ours are all personal opinions. In the end the club will decide what it decides.

It seems we agree to an extent on Retre so I won't bother going over that one any further. I think suggesting that Franjic is not a sufficient squad player is inaccurate, yes he's underwhelmed and we said as much on the podcast, for a guy who's a former socceroo and member of the greatest team this league has seen we'd have expected more but he's still above the status of 'squaddie' as far as I'm concerned. He's an A-League average full-back, no more no less.

We um'd and ah'd over Malik a bit, but personally I feel he does a decent job when deployed in midfield and is able to plug a gap at centre-half, although not at a particularly high level. I'd be comfortable with him as a member of the midfield rotation and maybe 5th choice as a centre-half. That being said, as has been discussed many times in this forum, gutting the playing list season after season isn't a wholly efficient way to build a cohesive squad, so if we're able to improve our squad in the areas we want without needing to move Malik on I don't see the reason to boot him out the door.

Gameiro is admittedly a controversial call on mine and Matt's part and potentially a pretty unpopular one, but as stated on the show, for a minimum wage contract (and no more in my eyes) I'd be willing to take a punt on a guy who when fit was one of the more electrifying wingers in the league at the expense of one more younger player who will probably see next to 0 game-time behind the list of young players we have who spend time on the wings already (Arzani, Yusuf, Syliados).

We all said we'd move Muscat at the first opportunity.

EDIT: If we're making squad decisions based on the Elimination Final performance we'd pretty much be starting again from scratch.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Embee

[NewConvert]

Hard for me to reach any definitive conclusion on players because they all went downhill as the season progressed. Mind you I should be used to it by now because it seems that every season that the team becomes worse. Perhaps Muscat should be released, and Colazo underwhelmed. But I wonder what would have happened if we had Gombau as coach, or Arnold.

[belaguttman]

Who to keep and release shouldn't be judged so much on this year, rather it's a decision for the new coaching team based on who fits in with the style and tactical plans for next season. That shouldn't be decided until then. For instance Josh Rose played like a donkey in a back 3 but like a stallion in a back 4

[Dylan]

TBH I wouldnt care if no player goes. Our issue has always been crap managers. Not crap squads

[SF33]

On 2017-4-26 at 1:09 PM, Jovan said:

Wilkinson was definitely the reason we improved last season after January and has continued this season. And Zullo who was average for us has been good at Sydney. Even Clisby who got alot of stick has been good.

It's looking more and more of a case "its us not them that's the problem".

And because so I think people need to relax with player scorn and criticisms. 

While it's not quite accurate to say that we let Wilkinson go, as was suggested a few posts above yours, I think your point is very valid. It's become a pattern: players look awful for us, we're glad to see the back of them, another club takes a punt with them, we all wonder 'How is this bloke still in the league?' and then his change of colours results in him becoming a rock solid player.

For that reason, I'd be very wary of making rash decisions with a number of our players, especially those who are still a good age and/or have showed they are capable players in the league elsewhere. Maybe Malik can settle as a regular contributor off the bench: he didn't have a sensational year, but he's still probably in our best 15 or so players and his versatility means he could be a great asset as a regular substitute. Maybe Franjic will have a renaissance. Maybe Brattan and Kamau get the kick up the arse they seem to so desperately need at their exit interviews and come back next season as different players. Maybe Tongyik becomes that solid starting centre back we've been looking for to patner with Jakobsen and we can get some cheap depth, instead of using a visa spot there.

I think in order of priority, we find our next coach, then sort out the visas: Sorensen and Colazo (a marquee) out (and Fernando, unless we get an injury replacement, so same thing really). Imagine what we can do with those spots? Then fill out the squad with a solid veteran backup goalkeeper, a few recognisable names for depth and everything else will be fine.

Personally, I'm pretty sure that if we nail the coach and the visa signings, our Australian incumbents in the squad will suddenly look a hell of a lot better.

[Tangerine]

My ten cents:

Keep Bouzanis but get someone in who can really push and challenge him (I suggest Tando).

I respect Rose's defensive abilities. He started poorly and improved but he is woeful going forward. Our attacks breakdown when it's switched to him. We didn't have the midfielders to switch it through the midfield so we always went back and across which ended with our fullbacks. He is not an attacking full back and doesn't fit that system. So either he goes (and is replaced with someone younger and more dynamic) or we start dynamic midfielders who can get on the ball and switch the play without going backwards first. Shame that young Pierias kid isn't a bit older (and a left back).

Muscat started the season in excellent form (think round 2). I think he's better than he showed. Best position was RB but lost that to Franic (who never set the world on-fire). I would keep Muscat for his versatility.

Malik is not good enough as a CB and not good enough as a a DM. Technically he's shit and worse than that, for someone his size he has no presence. Get rid, simples.....

Kilkenny is good but needs better players around him. He doesn't really get on the ball and doesn't really have enough presence to be imposing. Technically probably our best player but needs someone good beside him (either someone creative or imposing).

Start Caceres every game (if he's here). He's the only midfielder who showed the ability to create. He's not great but could develop if we actually gave him a chance.

Brattan needed dropping by half-way through the season. Retre should have been given a chance. Not that he's great himself but why have a squadie if you don't use him when your starting players need a kick-up the arse and are playing like shit. Genreau showed plenty and must be given a chance next season.

Fitzy is obvious. Kamau needs time on the bench to understand what to improve.

Cahill exceeded my expectations in terms of scoring. But he's not a midfielder. And he's certainly not one when you need creativity. Can not play with Bruno. Simples....

Bruno needs to be left one-on-one with a defender. Have creativity and movement in midfield and this can happen. Good players create space for others. Have Kilkenny, Brattan and Malik in the midfiled and what the fuck do you expect to Bruno to do. Should not be captain. Should not take penalties.

[rass]

2 hours ago, Tangerine said:

...

Bruno needs to be left one-on-one with a defender. Have creativity and movement in midfield and this can happen. Good players create space for others. Have Kilkenny, Brattan and Malik in the midfiled and what the fuck do you expect to Bruno to do. Should not be captain. Should not take penalties.

I agree with the better service to Bruno via a creative and incisive midfielder. 

I'm still not sold on the whole Bruno and Timmy can't play together observations. 

What we don't do enough on this forum is respect the work opposition coaches put into Bruno, all caused by the wonderful first season he had. It's easy to say he needs to be left one-on-one, but how often did defences double/triple team him this year?

To get his one-on-one, he had to roam deeper where he was either chopped or played for a foul, or he didn't have the speed to get back to goal once he beat his opponent.

Sadly via poor coaching predominantly, we just didn't play the two of them together nowhere near smart enough. 

[jw1739]

4 minutes ago, rass said:

I agree with the better service to Bruno via a creative and incisive midfielder. 

I'm still not sold on the whole Bruno and Timmy can't play together observations. 

What we don't do enough on this forum is respect the work opposition coaches put into Bruno, all caused by the wonderful first season he had. It's easy to say he needs to be left one-on-one, but how often did defences double/triple team him this year?

To get his one-on-one, he had to roam deeper where he was either chopped or played for a foul, or he didn't have the speed to get back to goal once he beat his opponent.

Sadly via poor coaching predominantly, we just didn't play the two of them together nowhere near smart enough. 

Yes, they did, but doesn't this automatically leave gaps elsewhere? Which we didn't exploit effectively at all.

We also didn't utilise Cahill's ability with his head. Only one player (Colazo) could consistently get the ball across the goal in the air (Rose and Franjic also did on occasions), so we had two players up front whose abilities weren't used as effectively as they could be.

You're absolutely right. Poor team management. 

[n i k o]

-defensively we were a bit light. We needed another solid centre back or at least given Tongyik time to want to the position. 

Solution (imo): Jakobsen and a competent centre back partnering him need to be brought in. We also need a left back to go in front of Rose  

-as has been mentioned we never replaced Mooy as playmaker. Given how the season went Caceras for mine should have been given the spot. He needs to be started and shown faith for his talent to come out. Outside of that we had Timmy who as the up for that role and then did too much chopping and changing. 

Solution: look far and wide for a playmaker. Imo this was the season for Caceras to do it but like on the pod he needs to go and we need a 'proven' creative mid that will most importantly draw attention to himself and open up our other attackers (Bruno particularly).

-the bonus of Novillo besides the assists and goals was the attention he brought with the ball. This in turn took the heat off Bruno.

Solution: We need a winger that is dangerous in attack that will require teams to double team him. On top of that he has to fulfill a defensive role as well.

- happy with Kilkenny. I'd like to see Brattan under a better manager. 

  

[playmaker]

We had the best wingers in the league.

The playing list was fine.

We underachieved because we just needed another 2 strong CBs, and the managers were a joke.

 

[thisphantomfortress]

36 minutes ago, playmaker said:

We had the best wingers in the league.

The playing list was fine.

We underachieved because we just needed another 2 strong CBs, and the managers were a joke.

 

Rojas and  FBK are better than our wingers

[bt50]

1 minute ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Rojas and  FBK are better than our wingers

Rojas definitely. FBK very questionable.

Personally rate Carney pretty high up as a winger too tbh

[n i k o]

Our wingers aren't good enough and outside of Brandan, Fitzy was our most dangerous. Tbh I wouldn't want to rely on him for a full season though. We need someone of the ability level of Novillo but with a better mentality. 

[playmaker]

Colazo was never going to be dangerous because he was never consistently played with Cahill in the box and the time he came off the bench cahill was off. The gameday planning was a joke.

And then the fact that no one knew their place, the Colazo balls would go in and players would fumble, bad first touch, or totally miss the target, but the player that had to be there (Cahill) was running back from chasing balls down field and wasn't where he should have been.

The management was a joke.

Edited April 28, 2017 by playmaker

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, playmaker said:

Colazo was never going to be dangerous because he was never consistently played with Cahill in the box and the time he came off the bench cahill was off. The gameday planning was a joke.

And then the fact that no one knew their place, the Colazo balls would go in and players would fumble, bad first touch, or totally miss the target, but the player that had to be there (Cahill) was running back from chasing balls down field and wasn't where he should have been.

The management was a joke.

So you are saying Colazo could be good winger if played with Cahill.....hahaha.

Good wingers have good pace, take successfully opponents on with one on one situations and make it to back line for a decent cross - Nicky has none of that. 

Baffled that people are protecting him, he is a nice squad player with a good left peg but not worth the money.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Mr MO

[thisphantomfortress]

3 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

So you are saying Colazo could be good winger if played with Cahill.....hahaha.

Good wingers have good pace, take successfully opponents in one on one situations and make it to back line for decent cross - Nicky has none of that. 

Baffled that people are protecting him, he is a nice squad player with a good left peg but not worth the money.

Two (or maybe one using a multi) users are protecting him, when you try to question them they use strawmen and argue about Kamau.

[Mr MO]

19 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

Two (or maybe one using a multi) users are protecting him, when you try to question them they use strawmen and argue about Kamau.

I know, it annoys the hell out of me..............and no I'm no Kamau fan either.  

[playmaker]

9 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

So you are saying Colazo could be good winger if played with Cahill.....hahaha.

Good wingers have good pace, take successfully opponents in one on one situations and make it to back line for decent cross - Nicky has none of that. 

Baffled that people are protecting him, he is a nice squad player with a good left peg but not worth the money.

Mate, either you are having me on or are delusional.

This is not FIFA17 mate this is real world stuff.

Wingers need to supply the stikers, thats their job.

If they have 99 pace like on your game or not it doesnt matter in the real world. Colazo had 4 assists , 4 goals from memory and was a dead ball specialist and the most effective balls into the box.

The team had no chemistry, it was mismanaged, Cahill wasnt in the box to receive crosses and Bruno was out of touch.

What I am saying is our list of wingers, as a collective, were the best in the league, Colazo, Fitzy, Brandan and Kamau.

Show me a group of wingers from one team that are better.

[Mr MO]

39 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Mate, either you are having me on or are delusional.

This is not FIFA17 mate this is real world stuff.

Wingers need to supply the stikers, thats their job.

If they have 99 pace like on your game or not it doesnt matter in the real world. Colazo had 4 assists , 4 goals from memory and was a dead ball specialist and the most effective balls into the box.

The team had no chemistry, it was mismanaged, Cahill wasnt in the box to receive crosses and Bruno was out of touch.

What I am saying is our list of wingers, as a collective, were the best in the league, Colazo, Fitzy, Brandan and Kamau.

Show me a group of wingers from one team that are better.

I think that 95% of the fans are delusional on the Nicky Colazo hype, that includes me!

[jw1739]

1 minute ago, Mr MO said:

I think that 95% of the fans are delusional on the Nicky Colazo hype, that includes me!

I'm actually a fan of Colazo, but I don't see the point of prolonging the debate. His loan was always only for one season, and although there's no official announcement yet, indications are that he and Sorensen will not be with us next season.

[playmaker]

7 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

I think that 95% of the fans are delusional on the Nicky Colazo hype, that includes me!

I think your 95% remark is a delusion in itself and it's not hype at all, as he is an effective winger with quality disposal. Something that no one can deny because if they do they are either lying or delusional. Take your pick.

1 minute ago, jw1739 said:

I'm actually a fan of Colazo, but I don't see the point of prolonging the debate. His loan was always only for one season, and although there's no official announcement yet, indications are that he and Sorensen will not be with us next season.

Agree.

Another lost potential due to moronic management.

[Ashy]

STAY

fornaroli, Fitzgerald, jakobsen, kilkenny, tonyik, brandan, franjic, kamau

GO

muscat, bratten, bouzanis, Gamero, retre, Malik,colazo,sorensen, rose, caceres

 

put a broom through the joint 

 

[bt50]

Just now, playmaker said:

I think your 95% remark is a delusion in itself and it's not hype at all, as he is an effective winger with quality disposal. Something that no one can deny because if they do they are either lying or delusional. Take your pick.

Agree.

Another lost potential due to moronic management.

Effective winger, no. Quality disposal, absolutely.

This is pretty much the crux of the argument, and exactly why he wasnt worthy of a marquee spot.

[playmaker]

7 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Effective winger, no. Quality disposal, absolutely.

This is pretty much the crux of the argument, and exactly why he wasnt worthy of a marquee spot.

Agree to disagree. Leave it at that.

 

[n i k o]

2 hours ago, playmaker said:

Colazo was never going to be dangerous because he was never consistently played with Cahill in the box and the time he came off the bench cahill was off. The gameday planning was a joke.

And then the fact that no one knew their place, the Colazo balls would go in and players would fumble, bad first touch, or totally miss the target, but the player that had to be there (Cahill) was running back from chasing balls down field and wasn't where he should have been.

The management was a joke.

What your saying though only focuses on one aspect of attack and that is Colazo crossing every single time and Cahill heading. Our winger needs to be more though. Like I said our winger must require teams to double team him because of his take on ability and ability to score goals from open play. It's not enough to just be able to cross. 

[Ashy]

1 minute ago, n i k o said:

What your saying though only focuses on one aspect of attack and that is Colazo crossing every single time and Cahill heading. Our winger needs to be more though. Like I said our winger must require teams to double team him because of his take on ability and ability to score goals from open play. It's not enough to just be able to cross. 

agree doesnt do enough for mine

was a huge waste of a visa spot, gotta be able to do more than cross

[playmaker]

33 minutes ago, n i k o said:

What your saying though only focuses on one aspect of attack and that is Colazo crossing every single time and Cahill heading. Our winger needs to be more though. Like I said our winger must require teams to double team him because of his take on ability and ability to score goals from open play. It's not enough to just be able to cross. 

TBH I saw that from all of our 3 wingers Fitzy, Brendan, and Colazo. The biggest difference from last season with Novillo was that Bruno was flying and Mooy was hunting the net. The other thing was the game was more open which wasn't the case this season.

To say Colazo didn't draw defenders is not true as often he created space for Rose and Brattan and Caceres and then released balls to create real opportunities for those players. He also had many shots on goal and attacked centrally and created centrally, and if Bruno was on song and Mooy was hovering then I think we would have been talking about him in a different light.

The more I think about it the more I reconfirm  that the team's underperformance is all from the off field management. I think Kamau was the biggest victim tbh, as he should have been the focus of development to ensure his disposal and vision improved from the preseason. The guy has so much potential and yet wasn't guided. I hope for his sake the next manage attends to Kamau's development because if he can rip quality balls in and link centrally with better vision he can be the best winger in the league.

Anyway whatever, just waiting to see who is going to take control of this club for next season.

[Mr MO]

1 hour ago, n i k o said:

What your saying though only focuses on one aspect of attack and that is Colazo crossing every single time and Cahill heading. Our winger needs to be more though. Like I said our winger must require teams to double team him because of his take on ability and ability to score goals from open play. It's not enough to just be able to cross. 

Don't even bother Niko..........Playmaker is also the biggest fan of Robert Koren, we should just let it rest!

[playmaker]

19 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Don't even bother Niko..........Playmaker is also the biggest fan of Robert Koren, we should just let it rest!

Yep. Great post. Let it rest.

[Jovan]

27 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Yep. Great post. Let it rest.

[malloy]

6 hours ago, playmaker said:

We had the best wingers in the league.

The playing list was fine.

We underachieved because we just needed another 2 strong CBs, and the managers were a joke.

 

 

44 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Yep. Great post. Let it rest.

Tbf you did say that our playing list was both good enough and not good enough in the same post.

[playmaker]

32 minutes ago, Jovan said:

Interesting and creative. I like it. Is there anything else you would like to add to the discussion or is a picture is all you have to say.

Tbh, looking at it I agree.

Quality = Colazo

post = I agree he it the post a few times, very unlucky

We deliver = agree his delivery into the box and from set pieces was exceptionally good.

Couldn't agree more. Great post mate.

 

 

[GreenSeater]

Oh my god who cares Colazo is gone let's move on and focus on our next underwhelming marquee

[jeffplz]

29 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Interesting and creative. I like it. Is there anything else you would like to add to the discussion or is a picture is all you have to say.

Tbh, looking at it I agree.

Quality = Colazo

post = I agree he it the post a few times, very unlucky

We deliver = agree his delivery into the box and from set pieces was exceptionally good.

Couldn't agree more. Great post mate.

 

 

Your understanding of the english languages catches me in awe with every passing day

[wombegongal]

3 hours ago, playmaker said:

TBH I saw that from all of our 3 wingers Fitzy, Brendan, and Colazo. The biggest difference from last season with Novillo was that Bruno was flying and Mooy was hunting the net. The other thing was the game was more open which wasn't the case this season.

To say Colazo didn't draw defenders is not true as often he created space for Rose and Brattan and Caceres and then released balls to create real opportunities for those players. He also had many shots on goal and attacked centrally and created centrally, and if Bruno was on song and Mooy was hovering then I think we would have been talking about him in a different light.

The more I think about it the more I reconfirm  that the team's underperformance is all from the off field management. I think Kamau was the biggest victim tbh, as he should have been the focus of development to ensure his disposal and vision improved from the preseason. The guy has so much potential and yet wasn't guided. I hope for his sake the next manage attends to Kamau's development because if he can rip quality balls in and link centrally with better vision he can be the best winger in the league.

Anyway whatever, just waiting to see who is going to take control of this club for next season.

The biggest difference is the fact that Novillo was a much stronger, faster, more direct goal scoring winger. He was worth marquee money if he didn't have off-field issues. Colazo and Novillo shouldn't be named in the same sentence in terms of what they have shown over a season.