belaguttman Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Interesting article from one time Heart technical advisor Ron Smith. It shows our sterile possession very well. It also shows that despite leading the league in balls into the box we've probably been less effective with those balls that most teams. Quote Member Login | Sign Up About Me FAQs Blog Testimonials Contact Ron's Blog Hyundai A League goals after 14 Rounds of the 2016-17 season By Ron Smith | 12/01/2017 | 1 Comments Hyundai A League goals after 14 Rounds of the 2016-17 season We are at the halfway stage of the season and I like to compare the scoring patterns with last season. I am more interested in goals scored in Open Play but record the goals scored from Set Plays because they are still very important. The total number of goals is up on last year from 193 to 207 with 142 and 160, respectively scored in Open Play. 2015-16 compared with 2016-17 Figure 1 shows the comparison of all teams after 14 rounds. The graph shows the percentage scores and it is quite clear how similar the patterns are. The most noticeable difference is in the increase in the number of goals scored with 6 passes or more this season (24%) compared with last year (18%) or the decrease in the number of goals from 5 passes or less this year (76%) compared with last year (82%). In every other aspect of scoring the percentage change is between 1% and 4%. Figure 1. A League scoring patterns after round 14 in 2015-16 and 2016-17 Goals from regained possession in each Third of the field There is a consistent pattern of scoring the most goals from regained possession in the Middle Third of the field. Sydney (SYD) scored 50%, Melbourne Victory (MVT) scored 54% and the league average was 51%; Melbourne City (MCT) scored 40% but had a higher percentage from regained possessions in the Back Third (33%), which was the highest of the top three teams and above the league average (26%). Goals in Open Play and from Set Plays There are considerable differences in the scoring patterns of the top three teams and with the league average, shown in Figure 2. For example Sydney have the highest percentage of goals (88%) from Open Play, compared with the league average (77%) and Melbourne City (65%), which means Melbourne City (MCT) have the highest percentage from Set Plays, which is not a great indicator to win the league. Figure 2. The scoring patterns of the top 3 teams and the league average in 2016-17 Goals from 5 passes or less and in each category. Sydney have scored the highest percentage of goals (83%) with 5 passes or less and have the highest percentage of goals (63%) from playing the ball behind opponents or to a player level with the last defender (my research classification of BBSPS goals). This indicates very quick transitions from defence to attack and quick forward movements by the players. Melbourne Victory (MVT) is close to the league average in both aspects but MCT (53%) are below the league average (76%) for scoring with 5 passes or less. Last season after 14 rounds they had scored 20 of their 28 goals (71%) from 5 passes or less, which is quite a difference. This would suggest fewer quick transitions from defence to attack, maybe passing the ball backwards rather than forwards at times, fewer forward runs and/or an emphasis on keeping possession. However, MCT (53%) is above the league average (49%) for goals from playing the ball behind opponents (BBSPS). At this stage last season MCT had scored 54% of their goals in the same category but with 7 more goals than this season, 15 compared with 8. MCT was the only team in the top three positions last season after 14 rounds. There is consistency in scoring from the various categories; each team had the highest percentage from playing the ball behind the opposition (BBSPS), followed by any Other Methods (OM), which is essentially from in front of defenders followed by the lowest category of goals, Crosses. Goals from regained possession in the Middle Third and each half of the field. Figure 3 shows the breakdown of goals from regained possessions in the Middle Third of the field. Regains in the Middle Third usually account for most of the goals scored in Open Play and the results are consistent. However, there are considerable differences in which half of the Middle Third, teams regain the ball. SYD (10%) and MCT (13%) were well below the league average (24%), while MVT (33%) were above it. The figures demonstrate that there are differences between the teams in the areas where they tend to win back the ball, even when they are similar in that they all scored the most goals from regains in the Middle Third. SYD are the team that has scored the highest percentage of goals (40%) from inside the oppositions half of the Middle Third and (67%) from inside the opponents half of the whole field. MVT are similar to the league average with a 50-50 split in each half the field and MCT are the second highest (54%) behind Sydney. Figure 3. Goals from regained possessions in the Middle Third of the field What does the evidence mean to coaches? The evidence from this data and from other seasons shows quite clearly that attacking quickly after regaining the ball, is a key factor in scoring goals. Unfortunately, many people think that adopting a possession-based style of football equates to long passing sequences and long periods of play with the ball, which can and does happen but results in fewer goals being scored. Quick or Slow Attacks When faced with a choice some teams will attack quickly more often and some will attack slowly more often because of the manager’s philosophy. Figure 4 shows a quote from Jurgen Klopp, the Liverpool manager on his playing style. Figure 4. Jurgen Klopp's playing style After seeing this I analysed the first half of two games involving Liverpool against Watford and Southampton in the English Premier League (EPL). At the time Liverpool had scored the most goals in the EPL. In the match against Watford, Liverpool had 75 possessions and they only made 6 or more passes on 15 occasions, which represents 20% of all their possessions; they had 15 attempts and scored 3 goals. Against Southampton they had 83 possessions and made 6 or more passes on 9 occasions, which is 11% of all their possession; they had four attempts and did not score. The fact is that if you want to play a fast attacking and pressing style of football, as Liverpool do, the style does not demand a lot of passes to be made before the players are close enough to take the risks to create scoring opportunities. Conclusion The evidence shows a high degree of consistency in a number of aspects of goal scoring across all the teams from season to season, but there are some differences between the teams at the top when compared with each other and the league average. This evidence is encouraging in my opinion because it shows there is not one way of doing anything in football and coaches have to be creative when it comes to getting the best out of the players they have at any given time during the season. Member Comments (1) alenmarin, 12/01/2017 4:20pm cheers Ron another great in depth analysis thanks for sharing Al Make a comment Notify me of follow-up comments? Tags training, psychology, practice,match analysis, Categories Home | Videos | Forum | Blog | Contact Us | My Account | Login Privacy Policy | Disclaimer | Site Map | Terms of Use Copyright © Ron Smith Consulting 2011 All rights reserved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofhearts Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 We have tactics? When have they been showed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris p Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Tactics, What are they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playmaker Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 19 hours ago, belaguttman said: The evidence from this data and from other seasons shows quite clearly that attacking quickly after regaining the ball, is a key factor in scoring goals. Unfortunately, many people think that adopting a possession-based style of football equates to long passing sequences and long periods of play with the ball, which can and does happen but results in fewer goals being scored. Sums it up nicely 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 Points Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) I think our tactics can be summarised in 3 words: Kick to Kick Good article, though Edited January 13, 2017 by 3 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr MO Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 No point having tactics if your players can't even pass or control a ball!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Can't believe Muscat out coaches us continuously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 We usually dominate possession stats and have a high number of completed passes and high number of balls into the box. What is behind the stats though is that opposition teams are happy to cede us possession in our own half until they sense a possible turnover, team press and force a turnover in a dangerous area most of our completed passes result in ball retention but not in penetration nor does it pull opponents out of shape as the ball speed is so slow. It also gives us time to push players forward increasing the risk of a rapid counter after the inevitable turnover. We are badly positioned in attack and neither pull opponents out of shape with rapid ball movement and runs off the ball, nor are we well positioned to recover the ball quickly in defensive transition. Our balls into the box rarely get past the first defender and cause few problems for opponents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 I hope the whole team and coaching staff are watching the game tonight to learn how to pass forward and attack 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jovan Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 25 minutes ago, haz said: I hope the whole team and coaching staff are watching the game tonight to learn how to pass forward and attack And not defend. (mind those 2 free kicks were class). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 But the problem with scoring a goal is that you immediately lose possession! Counter-productive to the game plan. If we concede we regain possession 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahanga Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 23 hours ago, kingofhearts said: We have tactics? When have they been showed? This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahanga Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Unfortunately I suspect Ron's assessment will fall on deaf ears. The more astute observers on here have been saying this for years. We move the ball conservatively to ensure possession is maintained, however this results in a well prepared compact defence which is very difficult to penetrate. Our approach might seem conservative and safe, but actually it's high risk and dangerous, because it makes scoring goals very difficult and thus we are at high risk of not winning the game. The only thing that breaks down half decent teams is quick ball movement. It's no surprise that last nights goal was scored from a first time cross. Safe second touch balls might be more accurate but are easily predicted by defenders. The careful play is required in the back 5 but attacking you need to risk losing possession to actually score a goal. Sigh. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestr Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, haz said: I hope the whole team and coaching staff are watching the game tonight to learn how to pass forward and attack Yes brilliant game fun to watch. Draw would be the best outcome fuk you blue scum (ahem navy) Edited January 13, 2017 by Jestr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Shahanga said: Unfortunately I suspect Ron's assessment will fall on deaf ears. The more astute observers on here have been saying this for years. We move the ball conservatively to ensure possession is maintained, however this results in a well prepared compact defence which is very difficult to penetrate. Our approach might seem conservative and safe, but actually it's high risk and dangerous, because it makes scoring goals very difficult and thus we are at high risk of not winning the game. The only thing that breaks down half decent teams is quick ball movement. It's no surprise that last nights goal was scored from a first time cross. Safe second touch balls might be more accurate but are easily predicted by defenders. The careful play is required in the back 5 but attacking you need to risk losing possession to actually score a goal. Sigh. Rant coming up. This is what I don't understand. I don't want beautiful football. Couldn't give a fuck about it. What I want is exciting football. Exciting is when there's forward ball movement. It's when there's attacking intent (not posessional intent) at any given moment. And it's when you get that feeling that everytime you have the ball a goal is a likely outcome. Now to get to that if that means we give up some possession so that when we do get the ball we can attack the space behind teams then I'm all for it. That's exciting. One of, if not the greatest individual moment in our history was Bruno's rabona and dink during the derby. A sweeping counter attacking goal. The fact we didn't have too much possession before the at didn't matter too much. We looked dangerous when we did get the ball. That's the difference and so many of our great goals and moments are off these types of plays (last season anyway). Right now we don't look dangerous and we are not exciting. I quote one Adelaide supporter who said they didn't feel worried at all against us during the game, only when Bruno got in and around the penalty box. If teams aren't shitting themselves when we have possession of the ball then you know your not doing it right and you can bet your bottom dollar it's fucking boring as bat shit. If this is the City way then fuck their philosophy. Edited January 13, 2017 by n i k o 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) "to win the game you need to score goals", the one bit of the philosophy that seems to have been missed with the over-reliance on possession for its own sake. Thos diagonal passes are risky balls, we avoid risk in order to keep possession. "play, possession and position, the most important one is position". We seem to have prioritised possession Edited January 14, 2017 by belaguttman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 25 minutes ago, belaguttman said: "to win the game you need to score goals", the one bit of the philosophy that seems to have been missed with the over-reliance on possession for its own sake. Thos diagonal passes are risky balls, we avoid risk in order to keep possession. "play, possession and position, the most important one is position". We seem to have prioritised possession Once again we don't have a player like Mooy to play as the "Iniesta" or "Xavi" and unlock the defense. Brattan has the ability but just looks fat and lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melburnian Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 29 minutes ago, belaguttman said: "to win the game you need to score goals", the one bit of the philosophy that seems to have been missed with the over-reliance on possession for its own sake. Thos diagonal passes are risky balls, we avoid risk in order to keep possession. "play, possession and position, the most important one is position". We seem to have prioritised possession Possession without substance is just a fucking waste of time. Right now this club is wasting time. Its boring football. Slow and uninspiring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestr Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 If I got .000001 of a cent for every comment I read in various treads about our possession tactics and how they are same same same (read bs boring football) I would be in possession of vast amount of money. And unlike mcfc I would know what to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 I've said it before our players are not technically good enough to play in the way we do to be successful on a consistent basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr MO Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, n i k o said: I've said it before our players are not technically good enough to play in the way we do to be successful on a consistent basis. Agree, mentioned this before. "No point having tactics if your players can't even pass or control a ball'' Players like Malik, Rose, Colazo and Cahill struggle to keep the ball on their feet - sort out the basics before you want to play possession games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Mr MO said: Agree, mentioned this before. "No point having tactics if your players can't even pass or control a ball'' Players like Malik, Rose, Colazo and Cahill struggle to keep the ball on their feet - sort out the basics before you want to play possession games. There isn't one team in the league that has the technicality to play how we do. The salary cap limits the quality of foreign imports and the majority of Australian players don't have that technical ability either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) I don't agree. We can't play it at the technical level of Barca or Man City but even Barca players were instructed about positioning during various phases of a play and our players are as good at following instructions as their players. Our positioning is not working in either attack or defence. We may not trap the ball as well or shoot as accurately but I've seen us move the ball much faster and do it very competently and so have we all otherwise we wouldn't be frustrated by our current play. If players are instructed where to move, where to run, then a risky pass suddenly becomes a low risk pass Edited January 14, 2017 by belaguttman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 16 minutes ago, belaguttman said: I don't agree. We can't play it at the technical level of Barca or Man City but even Barca players were instructed about positioning during various phases of a play and our players are as good at following instructions as their players. Our positioning is not working in either attack or defence. We may not trap the ball as well or shoot as accurately but I've seen us move the ball much faster and do it very competently and so have we all otherwise we wouldn't be frustrated by our current play. If players are instructed where to move, where to run, then a risky pass suddenly becomes a low risk pass Bella I'm just referring to our current system of play. In order to play a high possession game where for example your forced to break down 2 walls of 4 players most games you need individual players that have the technicality to do all the basics of football to a high level. You also need those players to have excellent dribbling/take on/avoidance skills to be able to break down teams. Then on top of that you need players that have excellent positional awareness as you said. IMO there isn't a team in this league that has all these qualities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCY HERO Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 2 hours ago, n i k o said: There isn't one team in the league that has the technicality to play how we do. The salary cap limits the quality of foreign imports and the majority of Australian players don't have that technical ability either. If there was no salary cap we would dominate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Roar managed it under Ange with a less talented lineup, granted against less technically savvy opponents. Even the visit0rs are closer to this goal that we are at the moment. I think that I'd be less concerned if we were genuinely attempting it and failing but really all we are doing is slowly slowly moving the ball into the front third, circulating from side to side and back through the keeper and then eventually sending an ineffectual ball into a crowded box against a prepared defence. When we lose position we are poorly positioned to regain the ball - I've seen us do this well in the past and Sydney does it well at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 Its cos we have a shit striker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n i k o Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) Not expecting much but I've posted on City Voice asking someone from the club to provide some transparency on who's responsible for our style of play and how much influence CFG have over the style of play our managers deliver. Edited January 14, 2017 by n i k o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahanga Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 44 minutes ago, n i k o said: Not expecting much but I've posted on City Voice asking someone from the club to provide some transparency on who's responsible for our style of play and how much influence CFG have over the style of play our managers deliver. Good luck with that. My understanding is that they only respond if you post "how much you love Melbourne City" 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, n i k o said: Not expecting much but I've posted on City Voice asking someone from the club to provide some transparency on who's responsible for our style of play and how much influence CFG have over the style of play our managers deliver. Like I mentioned in another thread, if us as supporters can organise another meeting with the club (I forget the name of the supporter organisation) then we can raise this point as has been done in the past. Scott Munn seemed to be very honest in most that were held. Edited January 14, 2017 by haz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr MO Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, belaguttman said: Roar managed it under Ange with a less talented lineup, granted against less technically savvy opponents. Even the visit0rs are closer to this goal that we are at the moment. I think that I'd be less concerned if we were genuinely attempting it and failing but really all we are doing is slowly slowly moving the ball into the front third, circulating from side to side and back through the keeper and then eventually sending an ineffectual ball into a crowded box against a prepared defence. When we lose position we are poorly positioned to regain the ball - I've seen us do this well in the past and Sydney does it well at the moment. Those teams you've mentioned are willing to work for each other, team and hard work can cover up a lot of your technical inabilities. I'm not saying we don't work hard but we aren't a team, Bruno and Timmy can't play together. Cahill's poor foot work, inability to setup play and poor working rate, can't be covered up the other players for 90 minutes. We are simply playing with 10 men until that occasional lucky cross comes in the box. Edited January 14, 2017 by Mr MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, Mr MO said: Those teams you've mentioned are willing to work for each other, team and hard work can cover up a lot of your technical inabilities. I'm not saying we don't work hard but we aren't a team, Bruno and Timmy can't play together. Cahill his poor foot work, inability to setup play and poor working rate, can't be covered up the other players for 90 minutes. We are simply playing with 10 men until that occasional lucky cross comes in the box. What we've done is agreed to sign Cahill in order to get concessions from FFA. The collateral from doing that looks more and more like the sacrifice of a season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr MO Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 6 minutes ago, jw1739 said: What we've done is agreed to sign Cahill in order to get concessions from FFA. The collateral from doing that looks more and more like the sacrifice of a season. Can't agree more with this. I honestly believe that we have to play him when fit as the FFA pays part of his wage and that is part of the deal. Again I'm happy with some important goals he scored but I believe our team functions better with more creative and technically better players up front (last season is a good example with Harry and Mooy). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 3 hours ago, haz said: Like I mentioned in another thread, if us as supporters can organise another meeting with the club (I forget the name of the supporter organisation) then we can raise this point as has been done in the past. Scott Munn seemed to be very honest in most that were held. Fan Representative Group - FRG. The reason you'd forgotten it's name is because it hasn't met for the whole of this season, and IIRC since last season. City obviously want it to die. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fensaddler Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 CFG tactics notably successful against Everton overnight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haz Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 48 minutes ago, fensaddler said: CFG tactics notably successful against Everton overnight... Never rated Guardiola, always has been given teams that are easily best in their league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestr Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 53 minutes ago, fensaddler said: CFG tactics notably successful against Everton overnight... Let's hope there's problem with transmission during this weeks "MVs FaceTime with pep possession football session" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bt50 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Such a good win from an Everton perspective. Tom Davies 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Yes those stats could easily come from one of our games, the 'CFG style' needs tweaking as the same issues are showing up in Man City as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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