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Warren Joyce. As predicted by Serb Hair Dresser.. Goneski


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17 hours ago, MXG said:

Ok, after reading all the whinging in this thread, I must say: Wazza should not be sacked.

He clearly found a "doable" style for us and proved that with the right players attitude we can win and actually play watchable football.

The only difference between first 4 games and current mess is players attitude, not Wazza's. In the first 4 games they were aggressive, quick  and constantly fought for midfield. Now they are slow and detached. "Casual" as Wazza absolutely correctly put it. Otherwise we have enough skills, which is as important as attitude, to be successful. It was not a hoofball by any means.

 

The underlying assumption is that all else remains the same. This cannot be true because other coaches will pay close attention at shutting your game down and when something shuts the game down then all other coaches will follow suit. The correct strategy is to tweak and evolve the game plan - change players, sub, change formation etc. So my point is that not everything has remained the same - the other teams have adapted and worked Wazza's style down to a T.

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1 hour ago, NewConvert said:

The underlying assumption is that all else remains the same. This cannot be true because other coaches will pay close attention at shutting your game down and when something shuts the game down then all other coaches will follow suit. The correct strategy is to tweak and evolve the game plan - change players, sub, change formation etc. So my point is that not everything has remained the same - the other teams have adapted and worked Wazza's style down to a T.

In our case other coaches did not need to adjust anything. We just stopped executing the game which worked perfectly. Down the track, yes, some flexibility would be required. But we never reached that point - our journeymen started to think they are on ManCity level already, got too comfortable and lost the hunger.

And just in case somebody would like to bring up the false similarity with JVS start of the season when we dominated at the start and then faded away. It was absolutely different style, we just basically threw the kitchen sink at the attack and overwhelmed the opposition initially. Took just 3 games for the opposition to adjust, then we returned to our usual side-ways toothless style.

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1 hour ago, MXG said:

...we returned to our usual side-ways toothless style.

TBH, I still think that this is the fundamental problem we have had in recent seasons. Irrespective of the coach being JvS, Valkanis or Joyce, irrespective of the line-up and formation, irrespective of the players we have had and have, irrespective of training methods and styles, we are simply too slow to move the ball around. I've seen nearly all of our matches at AAMI, and although I get too carried away with the game as a whole to be a dispassionate analyst, I'd say every other team in the league moves the ball much quicker than we do. We get ourselves into trouble by sideways and backwards passing - even take throws and frees backwards - and lose forward momentum in exactly the same way. We are also shot-shy.

IMO this has been the same season after season.

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The style worked perfectly? The players changed? 

Hold on, the style got results early but the play was hardly perfect. In any event, the opposition HAS adjusted and it is clear as day we have only a couple of offensive release players and we are now shutdown too easily and thus look impotent. A clear coaching issue.

Even if not, and the players got 'too comfortable' - um this my BIGGEST criticism of Wazza. He clearly has a favorite formation which he goes so as closely as possible, and everyone else is seemingly on the outer.

It is clear as day some have their papers stamped, others are the 'teachers pet' and they style is too rigid to incorporate any sort of substation change. Gee, I wonder why this would breed complacency in players and destroys the rest? Absolutely shocking! :rolleyes:

Im sorry, but on ALL levels Wazza is seemingly failing - but dont get me wrong, there are obvious issues which also go beyond him as well but he is doing himself no favors.

If we are giving him the benefit of all doubts, how do you explain his lack of bench use? Even when behind without looking like scoring and subsequently lose? Love to hear the excuse for that one.

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1 hour ago, MXG said:

our journeymen started to think they are on ManCity level already, got too comfortable and lost the hunger.

I'm thinking through the team at our players individual performances and can't seem to link our results to this opinion of yours. Can you give any speicific evidence (and I use it loosely as it's very subjective) of them getting too comfortable and losing the hunger?

I go back to Jess Fishlocks comment on the podcast when we played Sydney and lost, she made mention that the boys were actually  trying too hard to win/keep the lead and therefore made crucial errors as a result! 

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Its the players.

With Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan doing what they do, the opposition defence will always get into position.

All three of them did the same last season.

They lack vision, they lack the quick move forward, they impede the Striker (either Bruno or Ross) with wrong positioning and lack of service, and they hold the ball for too long at the wrong time and the opportunity passes them by (not that they see it anyway).

Dumb players.

It's time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third that can read the state of play and deliver the correct ball and the right time and none of these players are capable of that.

 

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20 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Its the players.

With Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan doing what they do, the opposition defence will always get into position.

All three of them did the same last season.

They lack vision, they lack the quick move forward, they impede the Striker (either Bruno or Ross) with wrong positioning and lack of service, and they hold the ball for too long at the wrong time and the opportunity passes them by (not that they see it anyway).

Dumb players.

It's time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third that can read the state of play and deliver the correct ball and the right time and none of these players are capable of that.

 

Firstly I agree that these players aren't world beaters and they won't be perfect. But I disagree with your comment on the back of the game on Monday. I'll use Brattan as an example. Countless times when Brattan was moving the ball into our attacking third he slowed down the play, not because he necessarily wanted to but because of the lack of movement off the ball from the other players. I watched this on the replay to confirm it. At one point during the game he literally threw his arms in the air whilst on the ball to say to the guys come on give me an option! 

For me this is a fundamental flaw of the system that Wazza uses. It's precisely why for eg the Jets are able to move the ball with pace and we aren't. The coaching system is different and the instructions are different. Even the Mariners with their budget of players have been made to look like an exciting team that moves the ball with pace. Because the system placed by Okon affects the way the players play. 

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42 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I'm thinking through the team at our players individual performances and can't seem to link our results to this opinion of yours. Can you give any speicific evidence (and I use it loosely as it's very subjective) of them getting too comfortable and losing the hunger?

I go back to Jess Fishlocks comment on the podcast when we played Sydney and lost, she made mention that the boys were actually  trying too hard to win/keep the lead and therefore made crucial errors as a result! 

It's mostly about mid attacking department. Mauk, Fitzy, Kamau, Brattan - they all got way too comfortable, especially first 3. They played much more urgent at the start of the season and our defense was not under pressure. They have a moments of individual glamour but as a group they are terrible.

And thanks for reminding me about Jess. In the same(?) podcast she also mentioned that guys are overplaying a bit (not exact words). Extra touch, extra taking on oppo player cost us opportunity. By the way great job guys doing Talking City. I hope you are or will be paid by CFG for the work you are doing.

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1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

TBH, I still think that this is the fundamental problem we have had in recent seasons. Irrespective of the coach being JvS, Valkanis or Joyce, irrespective of the line-up and formation, irrespective of the players we have had and have, irrespective of training methods and styles, we are simply too slow to move the ball around. I've seen nearly all of our matches at AAMI, and although I get too carried away with the game as a whole to be a dispassionate analyst, I'd say every other team in the league moves the ball much quicker than we do. We get ourselves into trouble by sideways and backwards passing - even take throws and frees backwards - and lose forward momentum in exactly the same way. We are also shot-shy.

IMO this has been the same season after season.

Yep, 100%. With any style slow ball movement will bring the same result.

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1 minute ago, MXG said:

It's mostly about mid attacking department. Mauk, Fitzy, Kamau, Brattan - they all got way too comfortable, especially first 3. They played much more urgent at the start of the season and our defense was not under pressure. They have a moments of individual glamour but as a group they are terrible.

And thanks for reminding me about Jess. In the same(?) podcast she also mentioned that guys are overplaying a bit (not exact words). Extra touch, extra taking on oppo player cost us opportunity. By the way great job guys doing Talking City. I hope you are or will be paid by CFG for the work you are doing.

I think your first paragraph is extremely subjective. It's a matter of opinion of what you see. Sometimes when the system isn't working or confidence is down and performances aren't where they need to be a lot of people take this for lack of effort which is what we're talking about.

I think you've further proved my point. Wouldn't overplaying be considered a form of additional effort? Trying too hard to make extra things happen when your not winning, like the extra touch or taking in opposition players? Isn't that exactly what Jess is saying that if the players aren't so desperate in their effort to force out a win they'll be calmer, make better decisions etc. 

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15 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I think your first paragraph is extremely subjective. It's a matter of opinion of what you see. Sometimes when the system isn't working or confidence is down and performances aren't where they need to be a lot of people take this for lack of effort which is what we're talking about.

I think you've further proved my point. Wouldn't overplaying be considered a form of additional effort? Trying too hard to make extra things happen when your not winning, like the extra touch or taking in opposition players? Isn't that exactly what Jess is saying that if the players aren't so desperate in their effort to force out a win they'll be calmer, make better decisions etc. 

The Fish is probably correct. After all, she's got years and many matches of experience. Also, if I were the coach, and aware that the boys are tense, aware that they're not getting the results they're capable of, and overplaying as a result, I think I'd ease off the training. If they're not fit by now they never will be. So do something different - even non-football - to relax their minds.

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I really don't think it's an either or argument. The tactics and instructions are shit added to the players and ability is shit. Which is more of a factor? Depends on your opinion but for me both are not working and more importantly not working together. 

The first 4 games both the tactics (coach) and execution  (players) worked and resulted in wins, but it was firstly a flawed concept and secondly hard to maintain. And above all hard to watch.

For me personally it's just a big mess and I'm not sure the coaches or the players have the ability to adapt to turn things around so something has to give.

You can't change the players  (well all of them really )  but you can the coach.

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25 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I think your first paragraph is extremely subjective. It's a matter of opinion of what you see. Sometimes when the system isn't working or confidence is down and performances aren't where they need to be a lot of people take this for lack of effort which is what we're talking about.

I think you've further proved my point. Wouldn't overplaying be considered a form of additional effort? Trying too hard to make extra things happen when your not winning, like the extra touch or taking in opposition players? Isn't that exactly what Jess is saying that if the players aren't so desperate in their effort to force out a win they'll be calmer, make better decisions etc. 

Every opinion here is extremely subjective. We are just speculating nothing more. But the last time above mentioned players played with less touches (Fitzy and Brattan) we scored some amazing team goal.

Having too many touches is not the same as trying too hard, so no, I disagree. With the current skillset it means being too arrogant on the ball and having lack of vision. Jess could not say it directly of course, but essentially she politely put what myself and other 20 people around me (what I can hear anyway) are screaming every game - pass the focking ball.

 

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1 hour ago, n i k o said:

this is a fundamental flaw of the system that Wazza uses

But it was same problem last season niko, and if you look at how we played under the JVS's possession attack system we had exactly the same problem with exactly the same players.

I would like to see different players in the forward third, more creative and skilled to see if they can provide better service to Ross because atm he is trying to be creator and scorer because nobody else can pull the trigger and test the keeper even if he does create something.

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1 hour ago, playmaker said:

But it was same problem last season niko, and if you look at how we played under the JVS's possession attack system we had exactly the same problem with exactly the same players.

I would like to see different players in the forward third, more creative and skilled to see if they can provide better service to Ross because atm he is trying to be creator and scorer because nobody else can pull the trigger and test the keeper even if he does create something.

I'll put it to you another way. Newcastle have been the most formidable team going forward. Their main players in mid and attack are:

Joe Champness: played for Coimbra Academic Association in 2017. First year in the aleague.

Andrew Nabbout: A victory reject that was playing off the bench.

Dimmy Petratos: A solid player in the past that's having a break out season. Brattan certainly has the more decorated career with titles at the Roar and also an FFA Cup with us. 

Steven Ugarkovic: Played only 8 games in second division in Croatia last season before transferring to the Jets. If youre not in top division  there then it says little about you as a player. Having an excellent season under Merrick though. 

Ben Kantarovski: A talented young player that has been stuck in the Aleague and at the Jets since 2008 showing no signs of either breaking into the Socceroos or making an overseas move. 

 

Where in in this group of players do you see anything to suggest they are any better than the current crop of players we have? In fact I could argue that our group of players are far more decorated in their achievements than any of these players. The fundamental difference between them all is the manager. 

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48 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I'll put it to you another way. Newcastle have been the most formidable team going forward. Their main players in mid and attack are:

Joe Champness: played for Coimbra Academic Association in 2017. First year in the aleague.

Andrew Nabbout: A victory reject that was playing off the bench.

Dimmy Petratos: A solid player in the past that's having a break out season. Brattan certainly has the more decorated career with titles at the Roar and also an FFA Cup with us. 

Steven Ugarkovic: Played only 8 games in second division in Croatia last season before transferring to the Jets. If youre not in top division  there then it says little about you as a player. Having an excellent season under Merrick though. 

Ben Kantarovski: A talented young player that has been stuck in the Aleague and at the Jets since 2008 showing no signs of either breaking into the Socceroos or making an overseas move. 

 

Where in in this group of players do you see anything to suggest they are any better than the current crop of players we have? In fact I could argue that our group of players are far more decorated in their achievements than any of these players. The fundamental difference between them all is the manager. 

 

The right question will be why all those rejects and teenagers are more hungry then our group of decorated players?

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29 minutes ago, MXG said:

 

The right question will be why all those rejects and teenagers are more hungry then our group of decorated players?

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't believe for a second those Newcastle players are any more hungry for success than our players. 

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2 hours ago, n i k o said:

Where in in this group of players do you see anything to suggest they are any better than the current crop of players we have? In fact I could argue that our group of players are far more decorated in their achievements than any of these players. The fundamental difference between them all is the manager. 

Agree to disagree. In our case 2 seasons 3 managers and the same problem in attack with the same players. For the record Kamau is nearly the worse winger in the league both on the ball and off the ball, Fitzy is not in the top 50% but does some nice things on occasions but both are dumb off the ball and one dimensional on the ball and weak on goals.

Brattan does not take attacking opportunities that present to him and prefers to hold and lay off passes instead of going for the killer ball.

What did it for me last week was that Brattan had the ball in the 12 yard box and just held it and didn't pull the trigger on multiple occasions. Exactly like last season. You can't have a player like that anywhere near the goals. He belongs at DM.

For me all three need a rest for a month and replaced by creative players who can move the ball quickly, direct and accurately.

Oh and btw the set pieces are atrocious both from corners and free kicks, again dumb balls in and dumb player positioning, this needs to be fixed.

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7 hours ago, playmaker said:

Its the players.

So its the players fault that Joyce fell out with his assistants?

Is it the players fault that our midfield is loaded with defenders?

Is it the players fault that Joyce doesn't utilize his subs or change formation during a game?

Is it the players fault we didn't sign Nathan Burns?

7 hours ago, playmaker said:

It's time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third

When isn't it time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third?

Is it also the players fault that Joyce won't select Carrusca and got rid of Brandan?

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52 minutes ago, Jacques Le Cube said:

So its the players fault that Joyce fell out with his assistants?

Is it the players fault that our midfield is loaded with defenders?

Is it the players fault that Joyce doesn't utilize his subs or change formation during a game?

Is it the players fault we didn't sign Nathan Burns?

When isn't it time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third?

Is it also the players fault that Joyce won't select Carrusca and got rid of Brandan?

Yes

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41 minutes ago, Jacques Le Cube said:

So its the players fault that Joyce fell out with his assistants? don't know what you are on about as I am talking about the front 3rd but now that you mention it Valkanis and Montemuro and Cahill were cancer

Is it the players fault that our midfield is loaded with defenders? don't know what you are on about as I am talking about the front 3rd 

Is it the players fault that Joyce doesn't utilize his subs or change formation during a game? He should but I don't see the relevance to my post

Is it the players fault we didn't sign Nathan Burns? Not relevant to the discussion as we are talking about the current state of the squad

When isn't it time for dynamic creative players to be in the front third? Agree Kamau and Fitzy is not working

Is it also the players fault that Joyce won't select Carrusca he has been injured and got rid of Brandan season injury no chance him being up to speed until after march

The sky is falling and let's blame it on Wazza as he has been here for half a season and is responsible for the 7 years of under performance.

I see Kamau, Fitzgerald and Brattan as the problem for the team not scoring goals, if you don't agree then so be it. All good.

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6 hours ago, n i k o said:

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't believe for a second those Newcastle players are any more hungry for success than our players. 

That's fine, we are on the same side here anyway :).  But I am also sure that even Perth players are willing to smash the opposition more than us. Even Victory being very poor tried to play quicker. We are the most lethargic side in the league.

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7 minutes ago, mus-28 said:

Never know how Wazza will line up. Fox had it as Muscat at CB and Jako in midfield, Brattan on wing. Plz No

 

Wellington paying $5.50 to win.

Fox get it wrong every game, I reckon they get either a 5 year old child or Ned Zelic to pick the lineups every week.

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1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

Maybe we can Kickstarter a one way plane ticket for him?

If he doesn't believe in Video Sessions or Sport Science, he probably doesn't believe in Planes either. So we would need to fund a ticket for a sail boat.

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19 minutes ago, playmaker said:

I hope he is starting to realise that some of the player's on the list are just shit. Arzani, Carusca, Budzinski and Vidosic need to be on the pitch. Mauk, Fitzy, Kamau, Muscat and Malik need to be sacrificed for the great good. Enough is enough.

Give up on Budzinski already, his time as passed. At the most he has 2 weeks to prove himself

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