The APL/FA Management Thread

[malloy]

1 hour ago, haz said:

VAR now sponsored by McDonalds....   VAR should not be sponsored for something that should not have to be used, get prepared for every goal to go to VAR to promote McDonalds just like the NRL and KFC.

Lol. Not necessarily a bad thing considering we are also sponsored by McDonalds.

[haz]

12 minutes ago, malloy said:

Lol. Not necessarily a bad thing considering we are also sponsored by McDonalds.

Was thinking this..... STAY WOKE!

[Shahanga]

Football in this country is in deep shit.

The management of the game wracked by division over what seems to be a dwindling pot of cash

A league standard dropping fast (or is that just because I'm watching Brisbane games?)

Socceroos low skill level

AIS closed

Future looks bleak.

[belaguttman]

12 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

Football in this country is in deep shit.

The management of the game wracked by division over what seems to be a dwindling pot of cash

A league standard dropping fast (or is that just because I'm watching Brisbane games?)

Socceroos low skill level

AIS closed

Future looks bleak.

At the end of the day, the problem is all about money (or the relative lack of it). The same issues in the AFL and NRL are papered over with lots of money, and AFL can further hide behind the shield of an insular 'competition' so that they aren't judged against international ideas.

[jw1739]

On 10/14/2017 at 0:51 PM, Shahanga said:

Football in this country is in deep shit.

The management of the game wracked by division over what seems to be a dwindling pot of cash

A league standard dropping fast (or is that just because I'm watching Brisbane games?)

Socceroos low skill level

AIS closed

Future looks bleak.

I'm not convinced that the actual standard of football played in the A-League is dropping. IMO it's rather more that it is not improving, (to my eyes) many of the clubs play pretty much the same way, FFA has introduced more restrictive rules, the format in which each club plays the same old 9 other clubs three times is becoming monotonous, and all these factors contribute to a feeling of staleness.

[Torn Asunder]

** Posted here at JW's request ** (first posted in MC attendances thread)

 

The game has hit a speed bump.

I put it down to the issues with the Socceroos, the rift between the A-League owners and the FFA and the genuine lack of star power within the comp.  This last point links back to the salary cap and the inability for clubs to build and sustain a squad capable of ongoing success in Asia.

The FTA deal with 10 may help drag in a few new fans over time, but in the short term it may actually reduce the attendances for the premium Sat night games.

There is a market for football in Aus ... just look at the numbers attending the games with the big name overseas clubs, or international teams.  These games, with exorbitant ticket prices, smash a-league and even Socceroo attendances. And there are so many kids that play the game, with families invested in the sport in someway, without any interest in the A-league.

For the game to go to the next level, the overall quality of the product needs to improve by freeing up restrictions to enable the creation of Asian Champions League quality teams, with big name players and more star power.  Clubs need to be able to use the free commercial market without the controlling shadow of FFA, who expect them to spend big and make a loss, without a genuine end game.

The FFA have put all their eggs in one basket (the Socceroos) and this is failing.  The A-League clubs know this and are fighting back through FIFA.  A better strategy for soccer in Australia is to enable a strong (Asian Champions producing) national comp that is well attended, with a commercially driven framework that encourages investment by individual clubs at all levels, which ultimately feeds up into the A-League.  The FFA cant continue to horde all the money for a State League / Junior system that simply hasn't produced genuine star players in recent times.

[belaguttman]

I think that the other issue is that local football is seen as poor quality (and it isn't) and that's why the Eurosnobs stay away. FFA alienated 'old sokkah' by excluding them from the HAL and that's why they stay away

[Jovan]

9 hours ago, belaguttman said:

I think that the other issue is that local football is seen as poor quality (and it isn't) and that's why the Eurosnobs stay away. FFA alienated 'old sokkah' by excluding them from the HAL and that's why they stay away

And local soccer is where all these huge numbers of registered participants have an involvement. Tbf the FFA Cup has done a little to bridge the gap but this connection should be continual.

[jw1739]

21 hours ago, Torn Asunder said:

** Posted here at JW's request ** (first posted in MC attendances thread)

 

The game has hit a speed bump.

I put it down to the issues with the Socceroos, the rift between the A-League owners and the FFA and the genuine lack of star power within the comp.  This last point links back to the salary cap and the inability for clubs to build and sustain a squad capable of ongoing success in Asia.

The FTA deal with 10 may help drag in a few new fans over time, but in the short term it may actually reduce the attendances for the premium Sat night games.

There is a market for football in Aus ... just look at the numbers attending the games with the big name overseas clubs, or international teams.  These games, with exorbitant ticket prices, smash a-league and even Socceroo attendances. And there are so many kids that play the game, with families invested in the sport in someway, without any interest in the A-league.

For the game to go to the next level, the overall quality of the product needs to improve by freeing up restrictions to enable the creation of Asian Champions League quality teams, with big name players and more star power.  Clubs need to be able to use the free commercial market without the controlling shadow of FFA, who expect them to spend big and make a loss, without a genuine end game.

The FFA have put all their eggs in one basket (the Socceroos) and this is failing.  The A-League clubs know this and are fighting back through FIFA.  A better strategy for soccer in Australia is to enable a strong (Asian Champions producing) national comp that is well attended, with a commercially driven framework that encourages investment by individual clubs at all levels, which ultimately feeds up into the A-League.  The FFA cant continue to horde all the money for a State League / Junior system that simply hasn't produced genuine star players in recent times.

IMO that's an excellent and candid summary of where the game is at the moment. The question is (or the questions are) what to do about it. My impression is that FFA under Slowy and Gallop have no ideas at all, and really don't know which way to turn. What are the top five ideas that people have?

[Jovan]

I think the first thing that needs to be done is that the A League becomes independent of the FFA. 

The FFA still needs to administer the game as a whole but not directly the A League or even the W League. 

The other thing that seems to get overlooked quite often is how incompetent the state Federations are. The issues that dog the FFA also occur in the states. Some may claim it's caused by the FFA but that's another discussion. 

But the eternal power struggle of soccer unfortunately will never be solved. 

[jw1739]

20 minutes ago, Jovan said:

I think the first thing that needs to be done is that the A League becomes independent of the FFA. 

The FFA still needs to administer the game as a whole but not directly the A League or even the W League. 

The other thing that seems to get overlooked quite often is how incompetent the state Federations are. The issues that dog the FFA also occur in the states. Some may claim it's caused by the FFA but that's another discussion. 

But the eternal power struggle of soccer unfortunately will never be solved. 

Would certainly be in my top 5. The leagues would simply pay some form of affiliation fee to FFA. The issue I see, though, is the existing TV deal. How do TV deals work elsewhere - are they with the leagues concerned or the country's FA?

[Jovan]

1 hour ago, jw1739 said:

Would certainly be in my top 5. The leagues would simply pay some form of affiliation fee to FFA. The issue I see, though, is the existing TV deal. How do TV deals work elsewhere - are they with the leagues concerned or the country's FA?

Mostly the League.

[belaguttman]

Supercars have never looked back since they took over running their competition from CAMS. It would be the same with the HAL, we just need to make sure that the national teams are well funded

[Torn Asunder]

I agree fully that the FFA needs to step away from the A-League.  The clubs and owners would certainly move the game to the next level and grow the game.  

For the Socceroos, I think that our current approach, where the FFA is trying to force a curriculum of possession based dutch football is severely flawed and has failed badly.  Rather than focusing on a singular philosophy that relies on us dominating play and being the fittest and fastest, there needs to be more of an approach that actually teachers players at a younger age about different formations, team structures and team movement, space on the pitch and defensive systems.  When you watch the Socceroos play the Asian countries who are up there in terms of potential qualification, they clearly dominate us as a team (on and off the pitch) in terms of tactical awareness and making the best chances to score goals.  If our kids were taught better how to understand the nuances of the game at an early age, then they would be much better at playing any style or formation.

If the A-League clubs could operate independently and were unrestrained to build Asian Champions quality squads, you would find that clubs start setting up to connect better to grassroots.  With the clubs applying their own philosophies into their feeder clubs or academies, and with competition to grab the best junior talent early, we would see better Australian players.  Of recent, most of the Aussie kids who are potential Socceroos have had to move overseas early, whereas growth in the A-League would create elite pathways in Australia

Edited October 25, 2017 by Torn Asunder

[HEARTinator]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:52 AM, Jovan said:

I think the first thing that needs to be done is that the A League becomes independent of the FFA. 

The FFA still needs to administer the game as a whole but not directly the A League or even the W League. 

The other thing that seems to get overlooked quite often is how incompetent the state Federations are. The issues that dog the FFA also occur in the states. Some may claim it's caused by the FFA but that's another discussion. 

But the eternal power struggle of soccer unfortunately will never be solved. 

But maybe a step in the right direction is to stop making the same mistakes as in the past. The Lowy 'takeover' and setup of the HAL was an attempt to find a new path which has worked to an extent. But now we find that the Lowy family are simply trying to strong arm everyone with power plays that seem to be no different to the power plays of the past. The problem IMO is that strong willed people like Frank, and now extending to his son Steven, can't let go of power. It's what has propelled them up the corporate ladder and they have an exaggerated sense of "I know best." But what's best now is to let the HAL 'child' free to become an adult and find it's own way in the world. With CFG and other owners I'm pretty sure it'll succeed. The FFA just need to be the umbrella organisation like other football associations - example being the German Football Association (DFB). It doesn't run the Bundesliga - it's a separate, independently run entity. It has a seat on the DFB board. https://www.dfb.de/en/about-dfb/presidential-board/

Edited October 26, 2017 by HEARTinator

[Jacques Le Cube]

https://soundcloud.com/fnr_footballnationradio/fnr_football-football-extra-25-october-2017-archie-fraser

If you get a chance, have a listen to this interview with former head of the A-League Archie Fraser. He goes into great depth with his struggles and frustrations with the FFA whilst trying to improve the league. He compares it to his extensive experience in the corporate world and the AFL.

It is fascinating stuff.

[HEARTinator]

1 hour ago, Jacques Le Cube said:

https://soundcloud.com/fnr_footballnationradio/fnr_football-football-extra-25-october-2017-archie-fraser

If you get a chance, have a listen to this interview with former head of the A-League Archie Fraser. He goes into great depth with his struggles and frustrations with the FFA whilst trying to improve the league. He compares it to his extensive experience in the corporate world and the AFL.

It is fascinating stuff.

Suggest its essential listening for anyone who is interested in the game. Archie pretty much paints the FFA as a bunch of incompetents without saying it directly. FIFA cleaning out the FFA would be a step in the right direction.

Edited October 26, 2017 by HEARTinator

[Shahanga]

Loved that interview. Archie was very engaging, authentic and convincing.

confirmed a few things I'd already thought, changed my view on some others.

Hat off to Ben Barba too. Got the right bloke in, asked the right questions and didn't get in the way.

[Jovan]

Great interview and hopefully Fraser can get involved again in the game at some point in the near future he is exactly the type of bloke that can drive the game over the next decade. 

Soccer people must be the ones making the big decisions. 

On a side note what are peoples take on fnr. I found it great although lacking alot of content and you can catch the same show several times also the length of adds does my head in. It reminds of Foxtel when it first launched in the 90s.

[HEARTinator]

Another perspective on the current state of the game. Good points made. Our comp has plenty going for it just needs some wise heads at FFA HQ.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/sport-thought-the-aleague-has-its-problems-but-its-still-pretty-great-20171023-gz6fon.html

October 28 2017

Sport thought: The A-League has its problems, but it's still pretty great

Anthony Colangelo

Australian soccer's most passionate supporters are all too easily stuck in a state of existential crisis. 

It seems we're always fearful of what our code means, where it sits against other Australian codes and if it will survive. 

Not even during what was perhaps our greatest moment – qualifying for and then competing at the 2006 World Cup – did we, or the media, allow ourselves to just enjoy the achievement for what it was. 

Instead, we constantly kept asking ourselves – or boasting about – what the Golden Generation's efforts meant for the code in Australia.

Had a sleeping giant woken up? Would the code take over cricket or the AFL? How successful, profitable and ubiquitous could the Socceroos' 2006 World Cup exploits help make the fledgling A-League? 

Those questions helped define that time in the sport, in addition to what happened on the field, and they've continued to define, for some, not least Football Federation Australia, the code today as it battles a myriad of problems. The off-field hopes and dreams we attached to the Socceroos' 2006 success still linger today, but do we ever ask if we wanted too much from the sport or why we even sought such lofty standards on top of yearning for on-field success?

Obviously not, because 10 years after that Uruguay game and nine years after those wonderful scenes in Germany the game's governing body raised the stakes. 

FFA's Whole of Football plan released in 2015 codified such targets under the aim of making "football the largest and most popular sport in Australia" with "more grassroots participants than any other code" and "more fans than any other code" in the next 20 years. 

Grassroots participation isn't an issue – soccer is Australia's most played sport. Turning grassroots participation into bums on seats at the A-League, and paid-up club membership holders, is the "problem" the code faces. 

Although in some ways it's only a problem if you want it to be. Somewhere along the way we chose to align ourselves with the benchmarks the AFL and NRL run their competitions by. 

The AFL, in particular, is a membership and attendance behemoth so why in FFA's Whole of Football plan are we choosing to fight them on that benchmark? Or why are we even choosing to fight the AFL at all?

What's wrong with getting 24,804 fans to Melbourne Victory against Sydney FC? Or 35,792 to a Melbourne derby a week later? 

The Sydney derby last week attracted 36,057 people and had an incredible atmosphere, but still people complained that the attendance was too low. 

If a Perth Glory or a Newcastle Jets can survive on an average crowd of around 10,000 people then that's wrong with that?

Surely the league can make current attendance and membership figures work, however meek some may judge them to be. 

I'm not saying the FFA shouldn't have targets. Every organisation needs them. But why be so ambitious? 

There would have been nothing wrong with planning for a sustainable game, rather than trying to make it the biggest.

When most clubs return a loss, and by the standards of some, struggle with attendances and membership, it seems a reach to expect them to have eclipsed the AFL, NRL and cricket in 20 years' time. 

The A-League is special in and of itself. While it isn't the NSL (which was beautiful for many reasons – not least the way most clubs were proper grassroots organisations, cultural touchstones and community hubs), it does have its own character, personality and cultural touchstones no matter how trivial some might judge them to be. 

You've got a rivalry like the F3 Derby (between the Central Coast Mariners and the Newcastle Jets) where the latest flashpoint came via a Mariners' barbecue sauce bottle mascot giving a double-barrelled middle-finger salute to Jets fans.

Or the George Calombaris situation; where one season the celebrity chef and Melbourne Victory's No.1 ticket holder participates in a club-made video to stop anti-social behaviour, then the next he cops a fine for assaulting a Sydney FC fan.

There was also then-Adelaide United coach Aurelio Vidmar's infamous "piss-ant town" dummy spit in 2009, where he derided a toxic culture around the city's soccer side following a 4-0 loss to Melbourne Victory. "Because of a piss-ant town this club will never win anything, until you get rid of that crap."

These, for me, are iconic moments and are reasons why I love the A-League. I love it for what it is and not for what FFA or anyone else hopes for it to be; 8000 at a Melbourne City home match – sure, it could be better, but it's still pretty good as it is. At least City don't have to worry about the money drying up. 

Yes, youth development pathways could improve in the A-League, the season could be longer and the off-season shorter, but these issues don't need to be beholden to soccer being the biggest game in Australia. Nor does the performance of the national team. 

In fact, these aspects of the game were all pretty strong during "the bad old days" when the NSL and Soccer Australia ruled the roost, so it beggars belief that FFA is currently just treading water while running soccer in 2017.

[Shahanga]

So the FFA have knocked on the head a proposition for a self funded 2nd tier because "it won't work".

Starting to look like it's time Gallop and Lowy moved on.

[HEARTinator]

FFV not supporting FFA. More trouble for Lowy and Gallop. #FFAOUT

Edited October 30, 2017 by HEARTinator

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, Shahanga said:

So the FFA have knocked on the head a proposition for a self funded 2nd tier because "it won't work".

Starting to look like it's time Gallop and Lowy moved on.

Except that on this occasion I think they're right. IMO the time to think about a second tier competition is when you've fixed the A-League, not before. But whichever way you look at it, Lowy and Gallop should go, because they seem to be incapable of doing anything progressive. Not surprising really, Lowy particularly - his only qualification is that he is Daddy's son.

[belaguttman]

Perhaps the best way to expand the HAL is through successful NPL teams earning the right to be promoted. Promote a team a year until we reach 16 teams then add promotion/relegation

[Jovan]

About time the FFV pulled their head out of their own arse.

[Jovan]

1 minute ago, belaguttman said:

Perhaps the best way to expand the HAL is through successful NPL teams earning the right to be promoted. Promote a team a year until we reach 16 teams then add promotion/relegation

Logic would suggest that. All this talk about targeting areas and creating viable startup clubs is basically hit and miss. Just let the Football decide. 

Set up a second tier top teams from the NPLS play each other and then the Champions get promoted to the A League. If the club's can't survive the second tier then so be it. After 6 seasons introduce relegation. 

Seriously it's just travel that is major additional cost for the NPL teams surely they can grow their revenue base to cover this increase. (10 to 15 away games and some would be local).

[Jacques Le Cube]

1 hour ago, HEARTinator said:

FFV not supporting FFA. More trouble for Lowy and Gallop. #FFAOUT

FFV has loaded up with 'old soccer' types with links to South Melbourne. For a while now its been rumoured that FFV is going all out to get South in the A League. My best guess is that the FFV see a new look FFA as the most likely option to get South into the national competition.

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, Jovan said:

 

Seriously it's just travel that is major additional cost for the NPL teams surely they can grow their revenue base to cover this increase. (10 to 15 away games and some would be local).

1

Travel costs have been borne by FFA, that's one reason why bench player numbers had been restricted. I'd assume that if the League were running its own show then they would also have a travel fund to cover the cost of away games

[Shahanga]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Except that on this occasion I think they're right. IMO the time to think about a second tier competition is when you've fixed the A-League, not before. But whichever way you look at it, Lowy and Gallop should go, because they seem to be incapable of doing anything progressive. Not surprising really, Lowy particularly - his only qualification is that he is Daddy's son.

But the things you think (or that I think you think) that need to be fixed in the A League (league quality, transfer fees, salary cap, no of teams, independent management  etc) they have no intention of fixing. 

A 2nd tier (A2 league) would provide a much needed development path for football in this country, amongst other things. It's needed now.

[Jovan]

A2? Championship?  I like B League.

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, Shahanga said:

But the things you think (or that I think you think) that need to be fixed in the A League (league quality, transfer fees, salary cap, no of teams, independent management  etc) they have no intention of fixing. 

A 2nd tier (A2 league) would provide a much needed development path for football in this country, amongst other things. It's needed now.

That's why Slowy and Gallop have to go. Step 1: Have the League run by an independent commission. Then the commission can fix the easy things - the caps, the ad hoc rule-making, transfer fees, no. of visa players, then go on to financial criteria for additional clubs, expansion etc.. I'd prefer to see these things fixed, some of which which could be done in a short space of time, rather than try to make the most difficult decision of all first.

[Shahanga]

On 26/10/2017 at 10:38 PM, HEARTinator said:

Suggest its essential listening for anyone who is interested in the game. Archie pretty much paints the FFA as a bunch of incompetents without saying it directly. FIFA cleaning out the FFA would be a step in the right direction.

One thing that bothers me about that interview is that Fraser talks offhandedly about Big Clive "playing his games" & "it not being hard to figure out what he was like".

Fair enough,  but if that's the case why did Fraser attach himself to Big Clive's very short lived "Football Australia"? 

[jw1739]

On 10/26/2017 at 10:38 PM, HEARTinator said:

Suggest its essential listening for anyone who is interested in the game. Archie pretty much paints the FFA as a bunch of incompetents without saying it directly. FIFA cleaning out the FFA would be a step in the right direction.

Is Archie Fraser squeaky clean?

http://www.theroar.com.au/2010/02/11/archie-fraser––sorry-mate-but-your-time-is-up/

[Dylan]

God help us if the state federations get more power

[Shahanga]

24 minutes ago, Dylan said:

God help us if the state federations get more power

?

they've got all the power to elect the FFA board right now. 9 of 10 votes

[HEARTinator]

12 hours ago, Dylan said:

God help us if the state federations get more power

I think FIFA understand what's happening. The Lowy model is to have the state feds in his back pocket and for them to simply rubber stamp his decisions.  That's been the model since day 1 of the FFA. This will change I have no do doubt. Either a more democratic model gets implemented voluntarily or FIFA steps in. An independent A-league is an inevitability IMO.

[Jovan]

57 minutes ago, HEARTinator said:

I think FIFA understand what's happening. The Lowy model is to have the state feds in his back pocket and for them to simply rubber stamp his decisions.  That's been the model since day 1 of the FFA. This will change I have no do doubt. Either a more democratic model gets implemented voluntarily or FIFA steps in. An independent A-league is an inevitability IMO.

But an independent A League is detrimental to the state Federations. 

[HEARTinator]

1 hour ago, Jovan said:

But an independent A League is detrimental to the state Federations. 

ATM, 2 out of the 9 state and territory federations are not in favour of the FFA reform model - the two are FFV and Football NSW, the largest federations. So mainly the smaller feds who fear change and want to keep sucking on the FFA teat. Which in turn is reliant on the media deals associated with the HAL. Change is  a comin’

[Jovan]

29 minutes ago, HEARTinator said:

ATM, 2 out of the 9 state and territory federations are not in favour of the FFA reform model - the two are FFV and Football NSW, the largest federations. So mainly the smaller feds who fear change and want to keep sucking on the FFA teat. Which in turn is reliant on the media deals associated with the HAL. Change is  a comin’

What seems to be ignored conveniently is the state Federations. For decades they are the major reason for the mismanagement of the game. They were there prior to the NSL, during the NSL and now in the A League era and by and large in the same mindset of an insular self absorbed attitude that has held back the game. The FFA are just a reflection of the state Federations. 

For the game to be truly managed properly and in the best interests of the game itself the state Federations need to be removed along with FFA and a new structure created.

A single body overseeing the game at all levels that isn't controlled by vested interests.

But sadly it won't happen. Fifa is as bad if not worse that the Federations.

[Shahanga]

Anyone else think that probably the only reason FIFA are trying to reform the FFA is to get square for them voting for Prince Ali at the last election.