Bruno Fornaroli - "El Tuna"

[Jovan]

So back to players again. How could I have missed that. Its the players fault.

FMD. What load of shit.

[playmaker]

What the hell is that garbage. I was going to go on but I am not even going bother. But if that idiot knew anything about the game then he would know the blame is to be bullseyed directly at JVS and rotting culture he has left at the club. And I am not talking of the players but at the whole administration and coaches. Get rid of them all and get some real leadership.

[belaguttman]

Steve Horvat is saying what we are saying

[n i k o]

It's actually one of the better written articles about out 'cultural' issues. For one he speaks specifically about the players and not the club itself which makes it hands down better than any other shit being spewed. I don't entirely agree with what he's said but I think he's right about some things. Namely the first and foremost thing is Bruno being captain. Was always against it and still am. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by n i k o

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, Jovan said:

So back to players again. How could I have missed that. Its the players fault.

FMD. What load of shit.

The players share some of the responsibility, no matter how good the coach is what happens on the field is their responsibility. Everyone in the organisation shares responsibility

[playmaker]

I don't really think putting arm band on another player really would change anything.

All I see is a group of disjointed and frustrated players that know they should be the best team but are really disappointed that there has been a persistence of a game plan that is hard to play and doesn't work.

[n i k o]

4 minutes ago, playmaker said:

I don't really think putting arm band on another player really would change anything.

All I see is a group of disjointed and frustrated players that know they should be the best team but are really disappointed that there has been a persistence of a game plan that is hard to play and doesn't work.

I think it changes things for the armband holder himself. His only responsibility should only ever be to score goals. Even watching the way he tries to take so much responsibility on the pitch with the ball (often losing it) I could haphazard a guess he feels the need to carry the team somewhat because it this.

[playmaker]

22 minutes ago, n i k o said:

I think it changes things for the armband holder himself. His only responsibility should only ever be to score goals. Even watching the way he tries to take so much responsibility on the pitch with the ball (often losing it) I could haphazard a guess he feels the need to carry the team somewhat because it this.

Yeah I agree, he is that type of person.

I just wonder whether if he was captain with a more open game plan like last season we would still see the same occurrences on the pitch, that's all.

[fensaddler]

44 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

The players share some of the responsibility, no matter how good the coach is what happens on the field is their responsibility. Everyone in the organisation shares responsibility

Agreed. It's a perfect storm.  Unbalanced, poorly recruited squad,  crap management, awful tactics, maybe wrong captain.  Not one thing, lots of things.  It isn't either or.

[jw1739]

47 minutes ago, fensaddler said:

Agreed. It's a perfect storm.  Unbalanced, poorly recruited squad,  crap management, awful tactics, maybe wrong captain.  Not one thing, lots of things.  It isn't either or.

Agreed. I have been a firm supporter of the CFG takeover until now when I find my enthusiasm evaporating. So many things have gone wrong this season that I no longer understand what City Football Group is trying to do with us. If you want a product to enhance your "brand" then it has to be a good product, and we are not that at all. In fact we are now the opposite. Each decision taken just seems to compound the problems that we have. It's incomprehensible to me.

[belaguttman]

11 hours ago, n i k o said:

I think it changes things for the armband holder himself. His only responsibility should only ever be to score goals. Even watching the way he tries to take so much responsibility on the pitch with the ball (often losing it) I could haphazard a guess he feels the need to carry the team somewhat because it this.

Compare Bruno's yellow card count this season compared to last season too. Granted there are other differences, he has much less space and poorer delivery and is operating higher up the pitch but he's less disciplined since he became captain

[jw1739]

20 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Compare Bruno's yellow card count this season compared to last season too. Granted there are other differences, he has much less space and poorer delivery and is operating higher up the pitch but he's less disciplined since he became captain

According to me we've had 62 yellows and 4 reds so far this season. (Ultimate A-League has us on 61/4 and I don't know where the discrepancy is.) We're the most-penalised in the league so far this season. We were the worst last season as well.

See http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=cb&season=2016-17 and other pages on that site.

[Jovan]

19 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Compare Bruno's yellow card count this season compared to last season too. Granted there are other differences, he has much less space and poorer delivery and is operating higher up the pitch but he's less disciplined since he became captain

Be interesting to know how many cards were for dissent/abuse as opposed to a miss timed/late tackle. The dissent ones you could attribute to language. In the heat of the moment I reackon he wouldn't be using well phrased statements. 

Having said all that I don't get all this angst about him being captain. It's easy in hindsight to say it was a bad decision but these decisions aren't made with hindsight. 

When he was announced Captain probably only Sorensen was the only logical contender. Imagine the reaction on here if that happened.

The real issue for me is weather he will retain the captaincy next season?  It's pretty clear being a captain hasn't improved his individual game nor benefited the team remarkably so for next season it's very probable with a new coach we will have a new captain. 

[n i k o]

14 minutes ago, Jovan said:

 

Having said all that I don't get all this angst about him being captain. It's easy in hindsight to say it was a bad decision but these decisions aren't made with hindsight. 

 

Fwiw Jovan my reasons for not wanting him captain now is the same reason I didn't want him captain before he was given it. 

[Jovan]

8 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Fwiw Jovan my reasons for not wanting him captain now is the same reason I didn't want him captain before he was given it. 

From memory at the end of last season when he left for holidays he hadn't re signed. The consensus was it was important to get him back and rightly so. And from memory  (cbf going through old posts) when he was announced as Marquee and Captain it was widely supported. Obviously the more astute questioned it but for me it was a no brainer and one of the better decisions that has been made.

[n i k o]

3 minutes ago, Jovan said:

From memory at the end of last season when he left for holidays he hadn't re signed. The consensus was it was important to get him back and rightly so. And from memory  (cbf going through old posts) when he was announced as Marquee and Captain it was widely supported. Obviously the more astute questioned it but for me it was a no brainer and one of the better decisions that has been made.

Fair enough Jovan if that's your opinion. Now to avoid going in circles we'll leave it at that  

[mjake1234]

14 hours ago, haz said:

Bruno Fornaroli should not be Melbourne City captain, says Steve Horvat
By Loukas Founten Updated Mon Feb 27 15:33:45 EST 2017
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-27/melbourne-city-bruno-fornaroli-captain-steve-horvat/8307574?pfmredir=sm

 

Former Socceroo Steve Horvat has slammed Melbourne City's decision to appoint Bruno Fornaroli as captain this season, saying he is "definitely not" the best leader for the A-League club.

Horvat said Melbourne City has a discipline and cultural problem that needs to be eradicated if the club is going to attract supporters and achieve success.

"I think that was the worst decision they could have made in the off-season, making him the captain," Horvat told Grandstand.

"He's too hot blooded, too temperamental and that's not the type of leader you need in a club like this — you need a calming influence ... and I think that's been a real problem for this club this season."

City currently sits fourth on the A-League ladder with eight wins in its 21 matches.

But the club has managed just one win in its last five outings, culminating in a 3-1 loss to runaway leaders Sydney FC on Friday.

Speaking after the match, Horvat was blunt in his assessment of the Melbourne club's performance.

    "The attitude and the mentality of the City players — it's not how you get bigger crowds in the stands, it's not how you get the crowd on your side.

"You give everything to the last minute of the game and try and get something out of it, if anything it's at least pride in your performance and that was really lacking."

Horvat, capped 32 times for Australia, also referred to a lack of discipline which had "haunted" the club in the second half of the season.

"We talked about it a few weeks ago when they had a number of players missing due to multiple yellow cards, they had Timmy Cahill with a red card the other week, you had [Manny Muscat] getting a red card [against Sydney]," he said.

"There's a lot of angst amongst the players in between themselves, a lot of arguing with the referee — these are all things that are a cultural problem and they need to eradicate that as quick as possible."

Coach John van 't Schip departed the club for family reasons in January with assistant coach Michael Valkanis taking over for the remainder of the season.

The club has taken 10 of a possible 24 points since then, but Horvat isn't blaming Valkanis for the current predicament.

"It's the people they've brought into the club, the players, the type of mentality they have in there," he said.

"[Sydney FC coach Graham] Arnold really hand-picked the players and the leaders he wanted to have.

"You've got guys like [Alex] Brosque, [Alex] Wilkinson that have come in, guys like [Danny] Vukovic — these are all leaders, experienced players with the right temperament and that's what makes you a great team."

Totally agree with his comments about Fornaroli. For multiple reasons he is not the right person for captain and I have no doubt it has taken an edge of his concentration. However to then target the players is way off the mark. The lack of culture and cohesiveness we continue to see at Heart/City is solely down to the management and coaches.

[fensaddler]

7 minutes ago, mjake1234 said:

Totally agree with his comments about Fornaroli. For multiple reasons he is not the right person for captain and I have no doubt it has taken an edge of his concentration. However to then target the players is way off the mark. The lack of culture and cohesiveness we continue to see at Heart/City is solely down to the management and coaches.

Again, it doesn't have to be either/or.  We don't know how things are in the dressing room, whether there are disruptive influences, difficult characters or blokes that just don't get on with each other.  And this could then be exacerbated by management, team selection, tactics...

But the little I know about sports psychology is that sides that are tight socially are also successful.  And that poor results will quickly open small cracks into chasms.

[Shahanga]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

According to me we've had 62 yellows and 4 reds so far this season. (Ultimate A-League has us on 61/4 and I don't know where the discrepancy is.) We're the most-penalised in the league so far this season. We were the worst last season as well.

See http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=cb&season=2016-17 and other pages on that site.

I do think we have a discipline issue.

I don't think it's good enough for the manager to say oh "those yellows shouldn't have been yellows", whilst I know where he is coming from, the franchise needs to accept that yellows are handed out easily in the A League & we get too many of them.

[belaguttman]

4 hours ago, mjake1234 said:

Totally agree with his comments about Fornaroli. For multiple reasons he is not the right person for captain and I have no doubt it has taken an edge of his concentration. However to then target the players is way off the mark. The lack of culture and cohesiveness we continue to see at Heart/City is solely down to the management and coaches.

I think that we could benefit from being more nuanced with this. The womens team are double Champions, the NYL team has won 2 out of 3. That suggests that at an organisational level things must be OK or all teams would be affected. It's a problem with the mens team members and the structures that support it

[haz]

26 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I think that we could benefit from being more nuanced with this. The womens team are double Champions, the NYL team has won 2 out of 3. That suggests that at an organisational level things must be OK or all teams would be affected. It's a problem with the mens team members and the structures that support it

This is a very good point. Once again I think it comes back to the "JVS Stench" and the left over coaching staff. Remember how the women's were on that losing streak until Montemurro left to the mens permanently?

[jw1739]

8 minutes ago, haz said:

This is a very good point. Once again I think it comes back to the "JVS Stench" and the left over coaching staff. Remember how the women's were on that losing streak until Montemurro left to the mens permanently?

Don't forget that both Trani and Jolic left after last season. I'm inclined to agree that it is the "stench" left behind, but this is not a new thing and I remain astounded that CFG has not acted to clean up completely because I can't see that what is happening is good for the "brand."

[haz]

Just now, jw1739 said:

Don't forget that both Trani and Jolic left after last season. I'm inclined to agree that it is the "stench" left behind, but this is not a new thing and I remain astounded that CFG has not acted to clean up completely because I can't see that what is happening is good for the "brand."

I think maybe it might have to do with the mentality of the players thinking "We're the richest club, have the best facilities, pathways to europe..... I must be the best then, and I'm better then you"

[playmaker]

57 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Don't forget that both Trani and Jolic left after last season. I'm inclined to agree that it is the "stench" left behind, but this is not a new thing and I remain astounded that CFG has not acted to clean up completely because I can't see that what is happening is good for the "brand."

And the biggest common denominator is JVS.

[Jovan]

4 hours ago, haz said:

This is a very good point. Once again I think it comes back to the "JVS Stench" and the left over coaching staff. Remember how the women's were on that losing streak until Montemurro left to the mens permanently?

But Montenmurro went undefeated in the inaugural season. 

Maybe once he got involved with the mens that's when things went bad.

[haz]

9 minutes ago, Jovan said:

But Montenmurro went undefeated in the inaugural season. 

Maybe once he got involved with the mens that's when things went bad.

Imo, the women's team was just so overpowered in the first season (as we spent the cap) that any coach could have went undefeated. But still credit goes to Montemurro.

[malloy]

9 hours ago, Jovan said:

But Montenmurro went undefeated in the inaugural season. 

Once JVS started mentoring him with the mens that's when things went bad.

FTFY.

[thisphantomfortress]

I tend to agree with malloys assessment. Joe M has had a very good record his entire career, up until working under johnny boy

[Dylan]

People have been overestimating the amount of control Manchester has over our club  and CFG become a  bit of a scapegoat IMO. The issues with this season can be squarely laid at the feet of the coaching staff and thats all. 

[Torn Asunder]

For me, the reasons this season has been so difficult are:

1. Squad imbalance and a lack of genuine quality defenders

2. Poor coaching / tactics

3. Bouzanis in goal over Thomas

4. Failure to adequately replace Mooy

5. Trying to fit Bruno and Timmy into a formation that doesn't suit the team 

6. Discipline 

There is plenty for our new manager to do

[belaguttman]

I'm not sure about the likelihood of achieving point 4, as Huddersfield will tell you, Aaron Mooys don't come along too often. We'd be unlikely to replace him unless his replacement was a marquee player

[Jovan]

30 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

I'm not sure about the likelihood of achieving point 4, as Huddersfield will tell you, Aaron Mooys don't come along too often. We'd be unlikely to replace him unless his replacement was a marquee player

Colazo. 

[mjake1234]

1 hour ago, Torn Asunder said:

For me, the reasons this season has been so difficult are:

1. Squad imbalance and a lack of genuine quality defenders

2. Poor coaching / tactics

3. Bouzanis in goal over Thomas

4. Failure to adequately replace Mooy

5. Trying to fit Bruno and Timmy into a formation that doesn't suit the team 

6. Discipline 

There is plenty for our new manager to do

Wow, got it in one - I mean six.

[belaguttman]

1 hour ago, Jovan said:

Colazo. 

Colazo is no Aaron Mooy

[Jovan]

28 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Colazo is no Aaron Mooy

That's the problem. Although he is fundamentally a wide player I think the intention was that for what we lost with Mooy, Colazo with his pedigree would make up for it. It hasn't worked. Colazo doesn't bring enough and as Marquee that is a setback. 

[jw1739]

53 minutes ago, Jovan said:

That's the problem. Although he is fundamentally a wide player I think the intention was that for what we lost with Mooy, Colazo with his pedigree would make up for it. It hasn't worked. Colazo doesn't bring enough and as Marquee that is a setback. 

We're getting off topic, but IMO it's wrong to pick on individual players. We have not had enough often enough from a whole raft of players this season. We have not consistently functioned well as a team.

[belaguttman]

It's not about individual players, each player has their abilities and limitations, it's about how each individual uses the abilities but also about the coaching system philosophy and tactics that works to maximise those abilities and minimise the limitations

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

It's not about individual players, each player has their abilities and limitations, it's about how each individual uses the abilities but also about the coaching system philosophy and tactics that works to maximise those abilities and minimise the limitations

Bela, you've excelled yourself. That's gobbledegook for "it's a team game."

[belaguttman]

25 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Bela, you've excelled yourself. That's gobbledegook for "it's a team game."

It's a team game but the team includes the support structures around the team and the management not just the 11 guys on the pitch. Given that the management and facilities are the same for all 3 teams, the only variables are coaching team and players. We can play the same 11 players out of position or in position but in a formation or tactics that don't suit the individuals and the team will be less effective - this part is a coaching responsibility. How the players actually perform on the pitch and how they respond to adversity is a mixture of their individual personalities and the group environment. Its not as simple as blaming the coaching staff or blaming the players, they are responsible as a group and also for their individual decisions on the pitch

[Chris p]

8 hours ago, belaguttman said:

I'm not sure about the likelihood of achieving point 4, as Huddersfield will tell you, Aaron Mooys don't come along too often. We'd be unlikely to replace him unless his replacement was a marquee player

 

Maybe not Moyy 2.0 but surely someone like ninkovic should be the minimum requirement  ?