Transfer Talk, Rumours and Speculation

[AXIOM]

5 hours ago, jw1739 said:

Maybe the club feels he hasn't come on as expected? Perhaps his alleged exit is a reaction to the alleged Galloway signing? Perhaps he's just another one who's had enough of Joyce?

For the next few months we'll feature in all sorts of rumours. I don't take much notice until things are confirmed by one club or the other.

Yeah maybe....perhaps could all be factors. However it just seemed that Atkinson is one that Joyce has given a more then fair crack which leads me to believe he likes him. Also with the possibility of RDL leaving, Pierias gone he would be first choice RB. Either way I'd like to see him stay. 

[Deluka]

Do we also have to consider the Popovic impact? It’s been well documented how good he really is for coaching, does Joyce really stack up in that regard if you’re a young prospect looking to develop?

[AXIOM]

1 minute ago, Deluka said:

Do we also have to consider the Popovic impact? It’s been well documented how good he really is for coaching, does Joyce really stack up in that regard if you’re a young prospect looking to develop?

Depends what you want to learn if it's running a marathon, 10,000m, 5000m, 1500m 800m 400m 200m 100m then Joyce is your man. If it's football then popovic the go. 

[JMSTEP123]

5 minutes ago, Deluka said:

Do we also have to consider the Popovic impact? It’s been well documented how good he really is for coaching, does Joyce really stack up in that regard if you’re a young prospect looking to develop?

With the prospect of Asian football experience under Poppa, I know where I would want to be.

[belaguttman]

10 minutes ago, Deluka said:

Do we also have to consider the Popovic impact? It’s been well documented how good he really is for coaching, does Joyce really stack up in that regard if you’re a young prospect looking to develop?

No

[jw1739]

1 hour ago, belaguttman said:

No

IMO that's a harsh call. I would say that where Joyce falls down is his management of senior and established players, not young players.

[belaguttman]

10 hours ago, jw1739 said:

IMO that's a harsh call. I would say that where Joyce falls down is his management of senior and established players, not young players.

Our up and coming young players have hardly progressed into the senior team over the season. Cameos off the bench for Najjar, Metcalfe and Najjarine, Pieris apparently never good enough.

[bt50]

12 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Our up and coming young players have hardly progressed into the senior team over the season. Cameos off the bench for Najjar, Metcalfe and Najjarine, Pieris apparently never good enough.

Pierias made the call on WU pretty early in the season tbf, so absolutely zero incentive for us to play him once that happened.

There's certainly not been the progress with the youngsters this season that we saw last, but tbh i reckon we still would have blooded more than most of the other clubs would have. Metcalfe is the one that stands out as perhaps being under-utilised i think; Najjar got injured and Ramy has been given reasonable opportunity for minimal output imo.

[Tommykins]

58 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Pierias made the call on WU pretty early in the season tbf, so absolutely zero incentive for us to play him once that happened.

There's certainly not been the progress with the youngsters this season that we saw last, but tbh i reckon we still would have blooded more than most of the other clubs would have. Metcalfe is the one that stands out as perhaps being under-utilised i think; Najjar got injured and Ramy has been given reasonable opportunity for minimal output imo.

Unfortunately, Joyce seemed to think that time away with the national teams was wasted time, rightly or wrongly this has meant that we only have really seen the young kids later in the season after all the Olyroos and Young Socceroos commitments are complete. 

[jw1739]

Interesting comments. I don't know about any of the other clubs, and I may have missed one or two of our young players, but 6 of them have definitely featured in our seniors this season so far. I'm not saying Joyce is the best youth coach in the world or even in the A-League, but I don't think there's any evidence to support an argument that he doesn't get on with young players and/or doesn't give them opportunities.

Ramy Najjarine has played in 13 matches, and been on the bench for another 2, totalling 197 minutes. Last season he had only 1 bench appearance to his name.
James Delianov has played in 1 match and made 4 bench appearances, totalling 90 playing minutes. Last season nothing.
Connor Metcalfe's numbers are 5 matches, 2 others on the bench, 75 minutes. Last season 1 match + 1 bench for just 5 minutes.
Moudi Najjar's numbers are 2 matches, 0 bench appearances for 29 minutes. Last season no data.
Dylan Pierias' numbers 2 matches, 2 other bench appearances for 22 minutes. Last season no data.
Idrus Abdulahi's numbers 1 match, 1 other bench appearance for 9 mins. Last season no data.

[n i k o]

2 hours ago, bt50 said:

Pierias made the call on WU pretty early in the season tbf, so absolutely zero incentive for us to play him once that happened.

There's certainly not been the progress with the youngsters this season that we saw last, but tbh i reckon we still would have blooded more than most of the other clubs would have. Metcalfe is the one that stands out as perhaps being under-utilised i think; Najjar got injured and Ramy has been given reasonable opportunity for minimal output imo.

Pierias wasn't given an option because we didn't give him any game time anyway prior to deciding to go to WU. I don't blame him at all for making the move, but nor am I blaming our club. Time will tell if the right choice was made. 

[bt50]

15 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Pierias wasn't given an option because we didn't give him any game time anyway prior to deciding to go to WU. I don't blame him at all for making the move, but nor am I blaming our club. Time will tell if the right choice was made. 

Absolutely. It's just a football thing really. There's every chance Pierias wanted to stay on with us, but due to competition for spots it was always going to be tough to break in here and he had to do what was best for his career.

Putting a largely untried youngster, no matter how good the potential, into the side over the captain and the marquee seems like a pretty stupid move barring exceptionally poor form of the incumbents, neither of which occurred.

I think every man and his dog, including the CIty coaching staff would have loved to keep him on, but you can't hold him back either. Hopefully one day he returns when we need that position filled.

[Jovan]

I think this would be a completely different discussion if you added Mcgree and Wales as young players. 

IMO they need to be included as young players and both have had plenty of minutes and to their own credit have proved worthy of playing. 

TBF to Joyce this is the one thing he can actually be credited for. Turning potential into A League level players. 

The others if they take their opportunities are for next season. 

[Mr MO]

3 hours ago, bt50 said:

Absolutely. It's just a football thing really. There's every chance Pierias wanted to stay on with us, but due to competition for spots it was always going to be tough to break in here and he had to do what was best for his career.

Putting a largely untried youngster, no matter how good the potential, into the side over the captain and the marquee seems like a pretty stupid move barring exceptionally poor form of the incumbents, neither of which occurred.

I think every man and his dog, including the CIty coaching staff would have loved to keep him on, but you can't hold him back either. Hopefully one day he returns when we need that position filled.

True.

What I don't understand is that we've had plenty of opportunities to play him -  as Jamieson and De Leat positions were vacant multiple times and we still didn't.  We put a Delbridge as fullback and played Atkinson on the right.

Does that say Joyce deemed him not worthy for a start despite being part of the senior setup for nearly 3 seasons? If he is good enough, what does that say to other youngsters, seeing these vacancies being occupied by older journeyman who contribute not a lot more in Jamieson (not a big fan of him) and Vidosic (getting old & slow) for example.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Mr MO

[Mr MO]

12 minutes ago, Jovan said:

I think this would be a completely different discussion if you added Mcgree and Wales as young players. 

IMO they need to be included as young players and both have had plenty of minutes and to their own credit have proved worthy of playing. 

TBF to Joyce this is the one thing he can actually be credited for. Turning potential into A League level players. 

The others if they take their opportunities are for next season. 

McGree was already bossing the league 2 seasons ago in Adelaide and showed his potential last year with Newcastle - surely Warren Joyce is not taking credit for him. 

[jw1739]

10 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

McGree was already bossing the league 2 seasons ago in Adelaide and showed his potential last year with Newcastle - surely Warren Joyce is not taking credit for him. 

McGree is an Adelaide United product. Wales is a Central Coast product. What we have done is contribute to their development. The players we can claim credit for are those who we "find" and bring in to our Academy/youth set-up. I don't think Joyce would claim credit where he doesn't deserve it, but there's no question in my mind that he has helped develop both players.

As for Pierias, maybe he has the talent but hasn't quite met Joyce's other criteria in terms of work ethic etc? I don't know. Joyce has shown with Idrus Abdulahi that he's prepared to back a very young player if he thinks he's worth it.

[Mr MO]

2 hours ago, jw1739 said:

There's no question in my mind that he has helped develop both players.

Wales yes.

Riley no, his development has actually stagnated under Joyce, he is on the same level for about 2 seasons now. You can clearly tell at his body language (mid season) that he has had enough of this Joyce circus. McGree has been with several clubs and a short stint in Europe, he is further in his personal development & experience than any other youngster. It wouldn't take him much for him to figure out the flaws of our club. This can be seen as a lost year in his career.

I was visiting a Osteopath yesterday and she happened to have a couple of city youngster as customers, kids who are selected by City but still need to pay hefty academy fees. She had those kids come to her with body complaints - Anyway the moral of the story, there is little supervision for these kids, they put them on generic programs and dump them in the gym. The parents are complaining about this.  

Edited May 2, 2019 by Mr MO

[belaguttman]

Najjar is currently injured but was available to play when we had no striker at all. There were no youth team strikers given an opportunity to impress, instead, we preferred to play a full back as a striker

[AXIOM]

4 hours ago, bt50 said:

Pierias made the call on WU pretty early in the season tbf, so absolutely zero incentive for us to play him once that happened.

There's certainly not been the progress with the youngsters this season that we saw last, but tbh i reckon we still would have blooded more than most of the other clubs would have. Metcalfe is the one that stands out as perhaps being under-utilised i think; Najjar got injured and Ramy has been given reasonable opportunity for minimal output imo.

Pierias got 22 mins under Joyce in two years so understandable why he left. If not for still under contract ramy and Metcalfe would be gone too. 

[Imtellingyou]

In A-league  pecking order is based on seniority.  Youth players won't be seriously tried.  Arzani fored his way by going through all defenders. 

[Harrison]

Depends on whether you think that playing young players out of position is good for development. It can be a good thing because they learn to think like, for example, a striker, they learn to make runs like a striker, they understand the interplay between the wide players and midfielders and his position. 

Playing Wales as a striker has potentially helped him become a more rounded footballer but he had his best match last weekend out wide and is so clearly a winger, so he could’ve developed a lot more had he played out wide all season. I think, on balance, it hasn’t been positive for him. 

Same goes for McGree. Absolutely wasted all season out wide and up front. Only now, as a central midfielder, is he playing to his potential. He’s been held back under Joyce. He projected to be a Socceroo a few seasons ago and should still get there eventually, but this season has been frustrating. 

I don’t think Joyce is some world class development guru. He might be very good at it in a designated development role, but as a senior coach his approach obviously changes and giving scraps to youth players, which every A-League club does, isn’t exactly groundbreaking. 

[bt50]

1 hour ago, Mr MO said:

True.

What I don't understand is that we've had plenty of opportunities to play him -  as Jamieson and De Leat positions were vacant multiple times and we still didn't.  We put a Delbridge as fullback and played Atkinson on the right.

Does that say Joyce deemed him not worthy for a start despite being part for of the senior setup for nearly 3 seasons? If he were good enough, what does say to other youngsters, seeing these vacancies being occupied by older journeyman who contribute not a lot more in Jamieson (not a big fan of him) and Vidosic (getting old & slow) for example.

Not sure about that when you look at timing; Delbridge and Bart played as CB's until roughly Xmas, which was around the time the Pierias rumours came about. So he may well have shot himself in the foot for a look in by opting elsewhere, of which i dont blame him. I'd have loved to see him get a crack too, but i can't think of too many times pre him deciding to leave where people thought he should get a crack given what he was up against. Those occasions prob more came about last season, when Atkinson was opted for instead.

Full backs are rarely carried on the bench unless they can play CB, which would be a stretch i imagine.

[bt50]

50 minutes ago, belaguttman said:

Najjar is currently injured but was available to play when we had no striker at all. There were no youth team strikers given an opportunity to impress, instead, we preferred to play a full back as a striker

Who won the golden boot we might add...

Look i get it re giving the kids a chance, and i reckon we could have def used him in that position with RDL as a winger in short bursts, but i think any criticism of playing RDL there is a bit unwarranted too and something Joyce got rightish given the circumstances*.

*Which may or may not have been his own doing.

[playmaker]

Wales = development.

You have to be kidding right?

Show me any aspect of his game that he has improved on.

More likened to Kamau series 2.

Mcgree, apart from his last few appearance has been average and no better than Mauk.

If anything recruiting and playing these players has impeded Metcalf, Najjarine and Najrar in their development and perhaps not really knowing if they are the real deal or not as this could have been their breakout season.

If Wazza is here next season these three players should look elsewhere .

[Mr MO]

3 hours ago, Harrison said:

Same goes for McGree. Absolutely wasted all season out wide and up front. Only now, as a central midfielder, is he playing to his potential. He’s been held back under Joyce. He projected to be a Socceroo a few seasons ago and should still get there eventually, but this season has been frustrating.  

This! Joyce has done more damage then good to this kid in my opinion.

1 hour ago, playmaker said:

Wales = development.

You have to be kidding right?

Show me any aspect of his game that he has improved on.

More likened to Kamau series 2.

Mcgree, apart from his last few appearance has been average and no better than Mauk.

If anything recruiting and playing these players has impeded Metcalf, Najjarine and Najrar in their development and perhaps not really knowing if they are the real deal or not as this could have been their breakout season.

If Wazza is here next season these three players should look elsewhere .

I know you are not a fan of Wales. For a free player on a minimum wage we had nothing to loose and I think he and the club have done well under those circumstances. That fact that we play no better with Berenguer playing LW says enough.

To answer your question, Wales has more goals and assists in the A league than last season! That’s improvement.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Mr MO

[jw1739]

I conclude from this discussion that I must be watching a different game from the experts. IMO both Wales and McGree have done well for us. Anyway, we won't have to discuss McGree next season - he has been recalled to Club Brugge.

[Imtellingyou]

 McGree is a product.  Wales is a half product.  He would still struggle for the game time at Mariners. 

[IssySG]

55 minutes ago, Imtellingyou said:

He would still struggle for the game time at Mariners. 

Strongly disagree with this statement.

[playmaker]

57 minutes ago, Imtellingyou said:

 McGree is a product.  Wales is a half product.  He would still struggle for the game time at Mariners. 

Biggest problem is he is keeping Najjarine out of the squad.

[bt50]

41 minutes ago, playmaker said:

Biggest problem is he is keeping Najjarine out of the squad.

IMO Wales has shown far more, even on pure averages for time on ground, in his minutes this year that Ramy has.

[Mr MO]

30 minutes ago, bt50 said:

IMO Wales has shown far more, even on pure averages for time on ground, in his minutes this year that Ramy has.

I agree, I'm in the Wales camp as mentioned - came with no expectation, doesn't break the bank. 

[belaguttman]

8 hours ago, bt50 said:

Who won the golden boot we might add...

Look i get it re giving the kids a chance, and i reckon we could have def used him in that position with RDL as a winger in short bursts, but i think any criticism of playing RDL there is a bit unwarranted too and something Joyce got rightish given the circumstances*.

*Which may or may not have been his own doing.

RdL performed well as 'striker' but the team balance suffered by removing him from his full back position

[Originalmeme]

3 hours ago, bt50 said:

IMO Wales has shown far more, even on pure averages for time on ground, in his minutes this year that Ramy has.

yeah no, dont agree at all with this.  Wales has been given far more time. How many starts has he been given.  Ramy has not had the same opportunities.  

[Mr MO]

8 hours ago, Originalmeme said:

yeah no, dont agree at all with this.  Wales has been given far more time. How many starts has he been given.  Ramy has not had the same opportunities.  

Ramy very talented yes.

People are sometimes getting carried away a little after his goal against CCM, (which he should have passed off).

Until then in all appearances and there have been a few, nothing was produced, no good cross, no goal, no assist, no taking on players successfully. 

[Harrison]

6 minutes ago, Mr MO said:

Ramy very talented yes.

People are sometimes getting carried away a little after his goal against CCM, (which he should have passed off).

Until then in all appearances and there have been a few, nothing was produced, no good cross, no goal, no assist, no taking on players successfully. 

Higher ceiling than Wales. Big potential but looks nervous and unsure of himself. 

Not the same kid as Arzani. Needs to be developed differently but he’ll make it in Europe. 

[Mr MO]

19 minutes ago, Harrison said:

Higher ceiling than Wales. Big potential but looks nervous and unsure of himself. 

Not the same kid as Arzani. Needs to be developed differently but he’ll make it in Europe. 

Agree

[jw1739]

2 hours ago, Harrison said:

Higher ceiling than Wales. Big potential but looks nervous and unsure of himself. 

Not the same kid as Arzani. Needs to be developed differently but he’ll make it in Europe. 

Don't forget that Wales is over two years older than Najjarine. I think he's been terrific this season for us - three goals and five assists. I rate both he and Ramy as exciting young players, and I think there's room for both of them in our team.

[n i k o]

Wales has done a great job considering he was never meant to be our main striker. Secondly he is more of a winger. Thirdly, throwing my opinion out there he looks limited in his final ball (yes I know two assists last week lol) and lacks the X factor besides some pace. Will be suprised if he's more than an Aleague level player or equivalent elsewhere in the world. 

[Mr MO]

35 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Don't forget that Wales is over two years older than Najjarine. I think he's been terrific this season for us - three goals and five assists. I rate both he and Ramy as exciting young players, and I think there's room for both of them in our team.

Yeah I don’t really get this discussion, they can easily be in the same team.

[playmaker]

Wales is crap, and is just keeping an possible future star off the pitch and potentially Najjarine will move on to another club if he doesn't get minutes which will be a huge opportunity lost IMO.

Regardless of my views on Wales I hope he scores 5 on Sunday just to prove that I am wrong.