Kiro Kompiro Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 The scary thing is that Mirabella (ex-Board member) was right. I think that this is unfair to say. During JVS' time here previously he developed many youth players, whilst still getting some decent results along the way. When I look at WSW, Popa has done next to no youth player development in his time there, relying solely on older players to get results.That part luckily paid off, but the glaring omsission of any real youth talent consistently getting game time is not a great reflection on him. Overall, we need to find the balance, but so far this year players like Chapman and Garrucio have been sick or injured, whilst a key creaive player has yet to play (Koren). Losing Villa for a few weeks (possibilty never to return?) opens up a spot for Marino though if he can take his chance. Yes, youth identification is his level. But what did we get other than money for the owners for his youth identification skills? Youth only pays of if the club gets some good years from them, and when they're sold, the club re-invests that money in bringing established players or better facilities. None of this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEARTinator Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) By the way I've got no qualms with jvs being moved on if he's not delivering after the adequate time frame. Sorry, that may have come across wrong. I agree that its too early to give him the arse. I was just saying that I dont think people getting on his back this early on is a typical knee jerk response because he has had way more than 2 rounds to prove himself I just add to this that rather than cherrypick various periods in a coach's tenure, it's better to look at the overall record. This can be seen on Ultimate A-League under "Managers", and if you go there and look at JvS' record over the 75 A-League matches he has coached you will see that he has a win record of just 30.67% and is a long way down the list of "Most Successful Managers." This is the talking point that you have to have. Here is a list of top managers by win/played % (2011, a little dated but anyway): http://www.goallegacy.net/t10925-managers-winning-percentage Josep Guardiola, 196 games, 1 team, 71,94 % wins. Jose Mourinho, 523 games, 6 teams, 68,26 % wins. André Villas-Boas, 101 games, 3 teams, 67,33 % wins.Louis Van Gaal, 747 games, 6 teams, 58,92 % wins. Vicente Del Bosque, 308 games, 3 teams, 58,77 % wins. Alex Ferguson, 2060 games, 5 teams, 57,82 % wins. Fabio Capello, 581 games, 5 teams, 56,8 % wins. Guus Hiddink, 687 games, 13 teams, 56,48 % wins. Roberto Mancini, 455 games, 4 teams, 55,38 % wins. Carlo Ancelotti, 776 games, 5 teams, 55,15 % wins. Kenny Dalglish, 622 games, 4 teams, 54,5 % wins. Arsene Wenger, 1297 games, 4 teams, 53,35 % wins. Frank Rijkaard, 394 games, 5 teams, 53,05 % wins. Rafael Benitez, 670 games, 5 teams, 52,24 % wins. Giovanni Trapattoni, 1194 games, 11 teams, 52,06 wins. Sven-Göran Eriksson, 905 games, 12 teams, 51,71 % wins. Manuel Pellegrini, 444 games, 5 teams, 51,13 % wins. Harry Redknapp, 1236 games, 5 teams, 40,45 % wins. In the HAL, successful managers such as: Arnold, 100 games, 52% Ange, 112 games, 50.9% Mulvey, 57 games, 47.4% Littbarski, 24, 50% Lavicka, 89 games, 39.3% (54.8% in 2009/10 premiership season) Merrick, 180 games, 43.3% (66.7% and 62.5% in premiership seasons 2006/07 and 2008/09) van Egmond, 129 games, 35.7% (48% in 2007/08 premiership season) So, JVS has to go from 30.6% to up into the high 40% to come close to taking us to silverware. On form, he won't do it. But football is a funny game. Edited October 21, 2014 by HEARTinator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted October 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 The scary thing is that Mirabella (ex-Board member) was right. I think that this is unfair to say. During JVS' time here previously he developed many youth players, whilst still getting some decent results along the way. When I look at WSW, Popa has done next to no youth player development in his time there, relying solely on older players to get results.That part luckily paid off, but the glaring omsission of any real youth talent consistently getting game time is not a great reflection on him. Overall, we need to find the balance, but so far this year players like Chapman and Garrucio have been sick or injured, whilst a key creaive player has yet to play (Koren). Losing Villa for a few weeks (possibilty never to return?) opens up a spot for Marino though if he can take his chance.There isn't enough incentive to develop youth in the A-league. Get rid of the salary cap and introduce transfer fees between A-League clubs, then it's a different story. Until then, we don't have a lot to gain from developing youth. You said it yourself, the team in the ACL final has put fuck all focus in developing youth, and has instead developed a winning first team.Having said that, I do agree with you, he is great at developing youth. So maybe he should be our Head of Youth Development rather than our manager. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belaguttman Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 The scary thing is that Mirabella (ex-Board member) was right. I think that this is unfair to say. During JVS' time here previously he developed many youth players, whilst still getting some decent results along the way. When I look at WSW, Popa has done next to no youth player development in his time there, relying solely on older players to get results.That part luckily paid off, but the glaring omsission of any real youth talent consistently getting game time is not a great reflection on him. Overall, we need to find the balance, but so far this year players like Chapman and Garrucio have been sick or injured, whilst a key creaive player has yet to play (Koren). Losing Villa for a few weeks (possibilty never to return?) opens up a spot for Marino though if he can take his chance. Yes, youth identification is his level. But what did we get other than money for the owners for his youth identification skills? Youth only pays of if the club gets some good years from them, and when they're sold, the club re-invests that money in bringing established players or better facilities. None of this happened. This is the problem with the franchise system, as long as they operate within the franchise terms, the owners are free to do anything they want. We aren't the owners, only the customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewConvert Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Having very little history with football, I really don't know about youth development vs success. With a squad of 23+3 it seems to me that having a very young squad is a recipe for failure. Having an old squad could mean short term success but at the cost of not developing a culture and having to shop around for good aging players. And at 27 games a season there is little time to develop the players. Furthermore, if the player is young and gets an overseas offer for more money, then will the fans stand in their way? I really have no idea as to what a suitable path should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jovan Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 It's not either or. It needs to be a blend. Core mature players with young players pushing for a spot, dilemma is identifying the talent and developing it and when they are ready having a spot available to step in to. As long as the club maintains its basic philosophy and is transparent about what it's trying to do then you can't complain. What annoys me is when clubs flip flop and do nothing properly and chase there tails and you end up with hacks that can't be replaced because the kids are obviously not suitable. Hopefully having financial security removes the day to day pressures of breaking even and let's the club focus on fundamentals of building a "proper" football club. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadete Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 The scary thing is that Mirabella (ex-Board member) was right. I think that this is unfair to say. During JVS' time here previously he developed many youth players, whilst still getting some decent results along the way. When I look at WSW, Popa has done next to no youth player development in his time there, relying solely on older players to get results.That part luckily paid off, but the glaring omsission of any real youth talent consistently getting game time is not a great reflection on him. Overall, we need to find the balance, but so far this year players like Chapman and Garrucio have been sick or injured, whilst a key creaive player has yet to play (Koren). Losing Villa for a few weeks (possibilty never to return?) opens up a spot for Marino though if he can take his chance. Or we could sack JVS and just aim to win things like trophies and shit... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) I liked having Aloisi better, that way we knew we were mediocre. Now we're just expecting wins and shit Edited October 22, 2014 by strider 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perthheart Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 JVS needs to find a way to get a-league level footballers to be able to break down two rows of four. The problem with that is the limitations of the players in the league. Anyone at a higher standard is picked up overseas pretty quickly so you can't build teams like you would at top clubs. It's hard to play winning possession football in lower leagues where the skill sets mean that the play will often break down whenever forward balls are made. We don't have the players of requisite skill to play the ball in tight spaces. Give players like Williams space to run into and they look a million dollars but in tight areas with defenders around him no chance. Watch Duff in tight spaces and how he can instantly make space for himself. It's those kind of players that are required for this brand of football across the park. As it stands we have Mooy and Duff (I'd argue Dugandzic too, just not consistently enough) in the attacking third capable of it. One would assume Koren is capable of playing that way and will make a difference having him there over Murdocca. The problem will be Williams up front when Villa leaves as his first touch is non-existent so anything coming centrally to him at close quarters is pointless. He is only really useful to us in situations where we are conceding possession and looking to play counter. Which for the record I believe we are far better to watch when doing so and also why under JVS we will regularly look a million dollars against teams like Brisbane then inept against teams like Newcastle who on the balance of clear cut chances should have beat us on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombegongal Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Newcastle were shit we looked much better. We had plenty of decent chances. They only got opportunities because we chased the game. No one seems to have mentioned how shitful Victory were this week too. I do however agree with the above contentions that we have some players that lack the skill set to play the style we want. Youth development is important if you want to have an overall club identity, this takes time to build. The glass is certainly more full than empty. JVS may or may not be the man. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyboozeadams Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Fold the club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ae7smith Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 It's fair too early to call for JVS to be sacked, but this thread provides ample opportunities for that over the course of the season. My main concern about JVS tactics is that a lot of people seem to imply that having heaps of possession = attacking football. Having watched JVS in his 1st and 2nd stints, his teams generally win the battle of possession, but we still generate a remarkably low amount of clear opportunities to score. Transition from defence to attack was too slow against Newcastle, they were determined to defend, but when we did win the ball from them, we passed it back to redders, or allowed Robbie or Paddy to slowly bring the ball back up. That may be a fine tactic when you're Barcelona, but no one (maybe Koren) can really unlock a defence through their passing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewmac Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Van Aloisi needs to get the fuck to Tullamarine & a one way flight to Holland ! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Well, that's 10 matches without a win - 6 league matches at the tail end of last season, an FFA Cup match, and now 3 league matches this season. The statistics don't lie. With the match squad we went in with today it was going to need a miracle for us to draw, let alone win. Just compare us man-for-man with the Visitors. Heart HQ is going to have to be held accountable sooner or later. Edited October 25, 2014 by jw1739 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartFc Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 ATTN: Cadete. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka1 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Sack him now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHFCROB24 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Slowly as the result don't go our way the clock will tick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSK_47 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Slowly as the result don't go our way the clock will tick. Slowly? Mate the clock has been going backwards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHFCROB24 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Slowly as the result don't go our way the clock will tick. Slowly? Mate the clock has been going backwards Let's say we drop the points next week to adel then again to bris?? Would it be fair to say he would be out? Don't get me wrong I want results our way. But surely we cannot go as long as we did with Aloisi in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSK_47 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Slowly as the result don't go our way the clock will tick. Slowly? Mate the clock has been going backwards Let's say we drop the points next week to adel then again to bris?? Would it be fair to say he would be out? Don't get me wrong I want results our way. But surely we cannot go as long as we did with Aloisi in charge. Let me just leave this here and keep in mind Western Sydney won the first leg of the ACL final tonight I have never really made it a secret that I am very dubious about the guy. During his first stint here he seemed to have an attitude that he was too good to be here (which he pretty much admitted he had) despite not showing any signs of that being true. Then after he left to Mexico for "family reasons" only to return to the clubs payroll as Aloisi's mentor- via Skype mind you, not in the country I really started to ask what he had to offer. After taking back his old job we saw a brief glimpse at that style of play that he was hired to bring to the club only to have it disappear as quickly as it came. The excuse was always he didn't have the right squad and my thoughts were always a bad worker blames their tools. Edited October 25, 2014 by KSK_47 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 The quality opposition is coming thick and fast now. pressure mounts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakz7 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 3 more home games from the next 4. Calls for his sacking will intensify if we don't get at least 7 points from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ando Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Better get ready to meet him in the carpark next Friday. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyfulPenguin Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I hate calling for coaches heads barely did when Aloisi was in charge but if we lose to Adelaide and Brisbane he should be sacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakz7 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 JA started last season with 2 draws from the first two games then a loss in the 3rd. We all know what happened afterwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Bring back Aloisi, at least he created chances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Keep this man forever. #HeartBelieve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHFCROB24 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just throwing it out there. If Australia bomb the Asia cup and get rubbish results. If they sack Ange from national duties. Would you want him in charge of city? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSK_47 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just throwing it out there. If Australia bomb the Asia cup and get rubbish results. If they sack Ange from national duties. Would you want him in charge of city? Nope. The goal is to become an Asian powerhouse so we need someone better. Might need to actually spend some serious money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just throwing it out there. If Australia bomb the Asia cup and get rubbish results. If they sack Ange from national duties. Would you want him in charge of city? Nope. The goal is to become an Asian powerhouse so we need someone better. Might need to actually spend some serious money Wenger might be looking for a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw1739 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just throwing it out there. If Australia bomb the Asia cup and get rubbish results. If they sack Ange from national duties. Would you want him in charge of city? Nope. The goal is to become an Asian powerhouse so we need someone better. Might need to actually spend some serious money Once again, why go outside CFG? Just give Patrick Viera the job on an interim basis. Let him run his eye over the squad for the rest of this season and then go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red or Dead Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Bring back Aloisi, at least he created chances Imagine Aloisi's game plan with Josh Kennedy as a target man instead of a midget...we'd have won the league! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSK_47 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Just throwing it out there. If Australia bomb the Asia cup and get rubbish results. If they sack Ange from national duties. Would you want him in charge of city? Nope. The goal is to become an Asian powerhouse so we need someone better. Might need to actually spend some serious money Once again, why go outside CFG? Just give Patrick Viera the job on an interim basis. Let him run his eye over the squad for the rest of this season and then go from there. Would pay an insane amount of money to see a Viera/muskrat punch on 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityzen Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 IMO Id prefer to have JA as coach over JVS. He's 'tactics' haven't worked at all so far and from what I've seen he has no passion for the team were as JA did. When he was in charge we had a pretty shitty lineup then he was sacked and the likes of engelaar and kewell came in so it was no coincidence that we started winning games and in no way would I say this was because of JVS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 IMO Id prefer to have JA as coach over JVS. He's 'tactics' haven't worked at all so far and from what I've seen he has no passion for the team were as JA did. When he was in charge we had a pretty shitty lineup then he was sacked and the likes of engelaar and kewell came in so it was no coincidence that we started winning games and in no way would I say this was because of JVS This makes sense. Our football under JA was slightly more entertaining to watch. From what I remember he was happy to play Heart as a counter attacking team. Clearly the possession game JVS wants to play isn't working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_terra_11 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 IMO Id prefer to have JA as coach over JVS. He's 'tactics' haven't worked at all so far and from what I've seen he has no passion for the team were as JA did. When he was in charge we had a pretty shitty lineup then he was sacked and the likes of engelaar and kewell came in so it was no coincidence that we started winning games and in no way would I say this was because of JVS Not sure if serious.....JA was a pile of shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityzen Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 100% serious, I never said that he was a great coach but he was passionate and is prefer him over JVS any day of the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn Asunder Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 JA was possibly the worst coach in the history of mankind 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofhearts Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 IMO Id prefer to have JA as coach over JVS. He's 'tactics' haven't worked at all so far and from what I've seen he has no passion for the team were as JA did. When he was in charge we had a pretty shitty lineup then he was sacked and the likes of engelaar and kewell came in so it was no coincidence that we started winning games and in no way would I say this was because of JVS Get off the gear mate Needs to be sacked now, a harsh example needs to be set that losses like last night are not acceptable (especially against those cunts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jovan Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 JA was possibly the worst coach in the history of mankind And Future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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