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The JvS thread


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33 minutes ago, KSK_47 said:

You couldnt make this shit up!

you couldnt make much of our situation up.

We are living in bizarro world and I just don't get it. We have had no on-field, nor off-field success in our history. Yet here we are with the same coach and the same CEO from the first time a ball was kicked in anger, surviving two ownership regimes.

Someone is taking the piss.

Teflon John and Slippery Scott. They must have pictures.

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1 minute ago, KSK_47 said:

This has been mentioned before and while the idea that cfg are controlling the management side of things is weird imo it still makes jvs being here more bizarre. He cant coach on his own and he cant coach while being coached on how to coach. 

WHY IS HE STILL HERE?!

I agree, that's why I also mentioned that whether he has his way or not he isn't good enough. I don't know the logic behind why he's still here. The logic behind why he's here in the first place is slightly easier to comprehend. More resources, better players, assistance from overseas should = success. Look we could possibly win this season and perhaps all those things may be enough to get JVS over the line. Maybe then the answer to your question will be answered, but if he doesn't then the question will be even more perplexing (if it isnt already :droy: ). 

Just now, CityHeart said:

you couldnt make much of our situation up.

We are living in bizarro world and I just don't get it. We have had no on-field, nor off-field success in our history. Yet here we are with the same coach and the same CEO from the first time a ball was kicked in anger, surviving two ownership regimes.

Someone is taking the piss.

Teflon John and Slippery Scott. They must have pictures.

I'd agree with you if we were still Heart. But with CFG i place then Scott Munn is the least of our worries right now. 

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4 minutes ago, n i k o said:

If this is the case where CFG is controlling a lot of this then I doubt it. Its been well documented they want all teams paying a certain style and would be enforcing this with every team they have.  

Of course they want the same style. The whole idea is to breed, train, shape players that will fit into the jewel of the crown in Manchester when capable and deemed ready.

Why spend money of all those mini cities if players there had a different game plan?

You may as well buy players elsewhere then coach them into city style. 

Large corporations demand compliance obedience and consistency.....

and bloody hell....thus far we have been very consistent   

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1 hour ago, Jestr said:

Of course they want the same style. The whole idea is to breed, train, shape players that will fit into the jewel of the crown in Manchester when capable and deemed ready.

Why spend money of all those mini cities if players there had a different game plan?

You may as well buy players elsewhere then coach them into city style. 

Large corporations demand compliance obedience and consistency.....

and bloody hell....thus far we have been very consistent   

Good discussion, but IMO it's not quite that simple. It's not only players that they are grooming, it's also former players who they want to bring into the CFG organization somewhere. IMO that's why Sorensen is with us, and possibly also Cahill, although I see the latter as more or less a trade with FFA to get concessions for the future (such as City blue jerseys). But I don't see Caceres, Brattan, Colazo, Fernando and Bruno as being groomed for ManC. Rather they are here to make Melbourne City successful in its own right, build the brand, and draw future players into the CFG network that way.

But whatever, they are certainly paying to do it. My mate and I did a quick calculation last night and the players alone are being paid somewhere between $7-9m this season, they've paid $12m for the A-League licence, $15m for the first stage of CFA Melbourne, and there are a lot of admin and other staff out there as well other than in the football department.

With that sort of expenditure, of course they want a product that meets the criteria of the brand.

TBH, I am surprised that JvS has lasted this long, and I can't believe that he can last much longer if he goes on making mistakes. CFG strikes me as an organization that doesn't really like sacking people without giving them every chance to redeem themselves, but surely JvS must be a close call?

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This CFG controlling the club from Manchester does not make sense. I can understand that they want all their clubs to play a certain style and I can understand that they want to create feeder clubs. What I don't know is whether Pep is playing a 3-5-2 formation at Man City or for that matter in any other club in the CFG stable; what I don't know is whether all their cubs have such few options in defense; and what I don't know is whether all their coaches are so tactically inflexible. If that is the case then I would expect all their clubs to fail.

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49 minutes ago, NewConvert said:

This CFG controlling the club from Manchester does not make sense. I can understand that they want all their clubs to play a certain style and I can understand that they want to create feeder clubs. What I don't know is whether Pep is playing a 3-5-2 formation at Man City or for that matter in any other club in the CFG stable; what I don't know is whether all their cubs have such few options in defense; and what I don't know is whether all their coaches are so tactically inflexible. If that is the case then I would expect all their clubs to fail.

 

They dont want feeder clubs. There's no Australian player now or in the near future that will be good enough to play for Manchester city 

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10 hours ago, Chris p said:

 

They dont want feeder clubs. There's no Australian player now or in the near future that will be good enough to play for Manchester city 

I take a bigger definition of feeder club of not only players but also additional fans, bigger market base for merchandising. Also players may be brought into the CFG stream from anywhere across the globe and sold to other leagues for a better premium. Take Mooy, he may never play for Man City but he could be sold to another EPL club or Belgium club for a better price than if Melbourne Heart had been able to get him to be noticed.

And my original point stands - I still don't see why CFG would be micro controlling the team.

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I'm just getting so pissed off with van 't Schip's repetitive use of "...the way we want to play...." He just doesn't seem to get it that we have to make changes according to the match situation, the set up the opposition is using, and so on and so forth. When you're out-smarted by someone like Kenny Lowe then you ought to realise that you've got it wrong.

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14 hours ago, NewConvert said:

This CFG controlling the club from Manchester does not make sense. I can understand that they want all their clubs to play a certain style and I can understand that they want to create feeder clubs. What I don't know is whether Pep is playing a 3-5-2 formation at Man City or for that matter in any other club in the CFG stable; what I don't know is whether all their cubs have such few options in defense; and what I don't know is whether all their coaches are so tactically inflexible. If that is the case then I would expect all their clubs to fail.

Interesting point but I'm not sure how we could define success and failure, and even if we could have we had a stable of clubs long enough to make a judgement?
Manchester City were taken over by what is now CFG on 1st September 2008. Since then, the flagship club has won the EPL twice, the FA Cup once and the Football League Cup once. If you count the FA Community Shield then they've won that once too. Neither of the other clubs (Melbourne and New York) have won anything in the albeit short period of ownership of those two. These comments refer only to the senior men's team.
There's been a huge overall investment in every area of the Group. Has there been success or failure - I just don't know.

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I highly doubt they are micro managing to the point of instructing training from Manchester - but no doubt using their resources to help the team here. Fact is, they are extremely patient with JVS but overall, they are a patient mob. Hopefully they are steps ahead of everything and the successor is lined up already. I have heard it was Gombau, but who knows.

In relation to CFG 'success' - I think they have massive, bigger picture targets that this seasons premier league, champions league or a-league title. 

Yes, they have spent money - but look at what they are doing in china (massively under the radar in the global football world). They have sold 10% of their group to a chinese consortium of media companies for the price they paid for Manchester City. Think about that. Manchester city have turned a profit the last 2 seasons now.

Further, in china not only do they have massive media with them, they have done deals over there to effectively introduce the game in schools (via their department of education) and the target is something like 50,000 schools. They currently are in like 10 cities. These are city-branded, youth development schools whereby millions of chinese are eventually going to be brought up in the game via the city brand. The mind boggles with the potential for the group over the coming generations. I think this deal is why they have fallen flat with buying a Chinese club - why link yourselves with one when you are at gross-roots with the whole league?

They will probably sell Mooy for a large portion of what they purchased Melbourne Heart for. These little 'investments' are not the end game here.

I think they want global domination in the sport, and brand by like 2050. Something like that would be success to them.

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20 hours ago, jw1739 said:

and the Football League Cup once.

Twice, but yes.

It's my understanding that CFG are not running teams around the world in order to advertise Manchester City, they are doing it to advertise CFG. They want to create a number of teams based around the Barcelona model so that people see their team and go "that's a team playing beautiful football in blue shirts - they must be a CFG team". Their idea then, of course, is that if any of those fans decide that they want to follow a team from another country (at this current moment in time, either because they are a foreign PL fan who want a local team, or a foreign team of a local league who want a European team, but conceivably later in other directions) they will be instinctively drawn to other CFG sides, not to mention that if CFG become ubiquitous with quality of play then people may be drawn to them before even committing to a league.

Whether that works or not I can't be drawn on. It's a very ambitious goal...

And as for the thing about teams playing 5-3-2 and failing...well, Manchester City tried it out a couple of games ago and are currently in the middle of Guardiola's joint worst ever run of form, so things aren't exactly going smoothly there, although the 5-3-2 was no more than a plan B, so again, call it as you see it. Certainly Guardiola doesn't seem to be learning the lessons he should've learned by now about the difficulty of the PL and the compromises needed. Also NYCFC are playing 5-3-2 in the game to kick off in 20 minutes, although again that's not their usual formation. They've been overall quite successful this year, although never quite hitting a run of fine football and always looking a bit haphazard and shaky at the back.

Edited by Falastur
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16 minutes ago, Thrillhouse said:

so funny muscat complaining about time wasting with no balls around while jvs has one right next to him up against the westfield ad object, then goes and back heels it away when geria came to get it

Really? If that's the case re-sign this guy 10 year extension!

Edited by Tony999
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7 minutes ago, Alexxxandro said:

Okay while some fans have been getting excited by the last month I was dubious. Today I am finally of the opinion that this season will be different because it already is: City in their first final.

 

 

Still better go end of season though...

I am not sold until we actually win silverware.

Agree. Regardless of what happens he needs to go

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8 hours ago, belaguttman said:

The big test would come after we win the Cup. Will JVS take his eyes off the ball and resume his usual low key low intensity self? Will the team be able to maintain the passion and desire or will we slip back to mid-table under JVS' passionless style?

 

I think thats all out of JVS's hands with this group of players and the culture  of success demanded by  CFG. 

Kilkenny isn't looking to kill team mates because of JVS,  Brandan isn't taking his shirt off beacsue of JVS. JVS has zero influence of Cahill's  desire to compete.

JVS was needed when he had players who were comfortable to "win if we win, lose if we lose".  If anything JVS was one of them, happy to milk the owners as the most expensive coach in the League.  Signs are he acutely feels the pressure of performing under the CFG brand as much as anyone.

 

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28 minutes ago, Kiro Kompiro said:

 

I think thats all out of JVS's hands with this group of players and the culture  of success demanded by  CFG. 

Kilkenny isn't looking to kill team mates because of JVS,  Brandan isn't taking his shirt off beacsue of JVS. JVS has zero influence of Cahill's  desire to compete.

JVS was needed when he had players who were comfortable to "win if we win, lose if we lose".  If anything JVS was one of them, happy to milk the owners as the most expensive coach in the League.  Signs are he acutely feels the pressure of performing under the CFG brand as much as anyone.

 

Our of likes but so much this. Particularly the last paragraph

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37 minutes ago, Kiro Kompiro said:

 

I think thats all out of JVS's hands with this group of players and the culture  of success demanded by  CFG. 

Kilkenny isn't looking to kill team mates because of JVS,  Brandan isn't taking his shirt off beacsue of JVS. JVS has zero influence of Cahill's  desire to compete.

JVS was needed when he had players who were comfortable to "win if we win, lose if we lose".  If anything JVS was one of them, happy to milk the owners as the most expensive coach in the League.  Signs are he acutely feels the pressure of performing under the CFG brand as much as anyone.

 

I hope that you're right. The visit0rs went off the boil after they won the Cup last season.

This is one green line that I don't want to get

Edited by belaguttman
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21 hours ago, Geo400 said:

I'm gonna watch nycfc playoff games in MLS to see if they too also pass the ball back to the keeper every 3 mins, I'm sure this has to be a jvs thing only but I wanna be certain lol

Not so much, although they do pass around the defence a lot. That said, this is a very good thing, because - unlike Melbourne - New York's keeper (Josh Saunders) is a massive, massive liability who can lose games on his own and has frequently choked when in one-on-ones. That said, their back-up keeper (Eirik Johansen) started their last game, and the fans are crying out for him to start again on the weekend, so if he's playing it may be different.

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He finally admitted it
playing a youth player in a pro game is more valuable than winning
 

"It gives you the drive to continue. It’s not always about winning, it’s about seeing a young boy playing and feeling, ‘finally he did it’. 

“I always like that, to see something happening with a younger player or even a player that maybe has learned something at an age where he thought he could not expect to do those things.

“I enjoy that.”
http://www.melbournecityfc.com.au/article/melbourne-citys-next-gen-stars-revealed/1f8a9kjjbogsn1hzfbusm5og5v#lVpbkRtYE7ViAS7S.99

 

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13 minutes ago, jeffplz said:

He finally admitted it
playing a youth player in a pro game is more valuable than winning
 

"It gives you the drive to continue. It’s not always about winning, it’s about seeing a young boy playing and feeling, ‘finally he did it’. 

“I always like that, to see something happening with a younger player or even a player that maybe has learned something at an age where he thought he could not expect to do those things.

“I enjoy that.”
http://www.melbournecityfc.com.au/article/melbourne-citys-next-gen-stars-revealed/1f8a9kjjbogsn1hzfbusm5og5v#lVpbkRtYE7ViAS7S.99

 

He didnt say that at all 

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5 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

Well, he's quoted as doing so - it's on the club web-site. But it's taken out of context because he's talking about Tongyik, Genreau, Crowley, Arzani etc. He certainly doesn't say that he'll sacrifice a win just to give someone game time.

He was inferring that winning was part of a process and certainly not an and or equation

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Interestingly, for those who believe that Graham Arnold is being groomed for the job as JVS' replacement, I've just seen a story saying that Dutch club (and I should point out, CFG affiliate) NAC Breda are reportedly trying to persuade him to move away from the A-League and over to Europe.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/sydney-fc/european-club-nac-breda-makes-an-approach-to-sign-graham-arnold-from-sydney-fc-20161030-gse05v.html

Edited by Falastur
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6 minutes ago, Falastur said:

Interestingly, for those who believe that Graham Arnold is being groomed for the job as JVS' replacement, I've just seen a story saying that Dutch club (and I should point out, CFG affiliate) NAC Breda are reportedly trying to persuade him to move away from the A-League and over to Europe.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/sydney-fc/european-club-nac-breda-makes-an-approach-to-sign-graham-arnold-from-sydney-fc-20161030-gse05v.html

The plot thickens. Or we are just clutching at straws in hope we finally get rid of the tanned stoner. 

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Seems like the best place to put this. I'm not gonna say who but word from someone close to the playing and coaching group reckons our defenders don't know what they're supposed to to do when they are in possession of the bal and that they're a bit confused as to their exact role. Jakobson is able to play his role better due to the caliber of player he is but the others aren't faring as well. 

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6 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Seems like the best place to put this. I'm not gonna say who but word from someone close to the playing and coaching group reckons our defenders don't know what they're supposed to to do when they are in possession of the bal and that they're a bit confused as to their exact role. Jakobson is able to play his role better due to the caliber of player he is but the others aren't faring as well. 

Sack the defenders!

Next.

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12 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Seems like the best place to put this. I'm not gonna say who but word from someone close to the playing and coaching group reckons our defenders don't know what they're supposed to to do when they are in possession of the bal and that they're a bit confused as to their exact role. Jakobson is able to play his role better due to the caliber of player he is but the others aren't faring as well. 

Do the big wigs at cfg know this?

6 minutes ago, Tony999 said:

Sack the defenders!

Next.

And hire an expert dedensive coach at considerably more than it would to pay out jvs

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13 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Seems like the best place to put this. I'm not gonna say who but word from someone close to the playing and coaching group reckons our defenders don't know what they're supposed to to do when they are in possession of the bal and that they're a bit confused as to their exact role. Jakobson is able to play his role better due to the caliber of player he is but the others aren't faring as well. 

I thought Mike Valkanis was supposed to be primarily a defensive coach?

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35 minutes ago, n i k o said:

Seems like the best place to put this. I'm not gonna say who but word from someone close to the playing and coaching group reckons our defenders don't know what they're supposed to to do when they are in possession of the bal and that they're a bit confused as to their exact role. Jakobson is able to play his role better due to the caliber of player he is but the others aren't faring as well. 

Sounds stupid, but how hard is it to say "Coach, what am i meant to do?"

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