The JvS thread

[Torn Asunder]

If JVS is not able to strengthen our defence, then his only chance to survive is to change formation and set up based on our best players - the issue may be that that is not condusive to replicating the City brand of football.

At the moment our formation and tactics are predictable, and given our weaknesses out wide at the back, and with Murdocca, opposition teams can sit back, and then attack us effectively through a multitude of avenues. When we play through midfield, they let Mass have the ball, when there is a turnover, they isolate our full backs and go wide. Then they know they are a fair chance of scoring against Redders.

3 at the back should be a start, with wing backs and a packed midfield ...

IMO if JVS does not change things up and move away from the City style (based on not being able to strengthen the squad), and set up around our strengths, the season will be doomed quickly to fail. Something different against Roar or see ya later JVS ...

[Parrot]

_{"Half of Melbourne is feeling rather chilly}

_{… and that’s not just down to the regularly inclement weather. City opened the season with a performance of real promise against Sydney FC, but it took a very belated piece of magic to even get parity with a lightweight Newcastle side. Coach John van’t Schip is well aware of the expectations heaped upon him by the sheer level of resources City now enjoy, and two points from four games doesn’t make for pleasant reading. Interestingly van’t Schip seems to be flogging his players in training, and some of them blame that for their lack of sharpness."}

 

_{At http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/aleague-round-four-antonis-growing-up-pain-ready-gombau-adapts-where-to-for-city/story-e6frf4gl-1227111721569}
 

[Shahanga]

_{"Half of Melbourne is feeling rather chilly}

_{… Interestingly van’t Schip seems to be flogging his players in training, and some of them blame that for their lack of sharpness."}

 

 

 

Flogging them at training? I hope he is, but I doubt it (didn't look like it when i was there Monday).

 

 Honestly do some of the players think, after the lack of character they've showed in the last 2 games, they should be allowed to slack off, as some sort of reward?  FFS.  They obviously need to work a lot harder than what they have been.   Honestly, how many clubs do they think will be falling over themselves to sign players from a group that has lost 11 in a row?  They have to turn it around themselves and whinging about having to work whilst at work isn't going to help.

[Dylan]

im hearing jvs backed admire rakti. Aloisi was asked to comment and he said the horse ran a great race and was just unlucky

Edited November 4, 2014 by Dylan

[Parrot]

While some of our best players are quality A League standard, we appear to have a very thin squad lacking quality.

 

I hate to do it, but just look at the lack of depth in our squad compared to for example, Victory.

 

Now who are going to put up their hands and admit they've got our list management/recruiting/player development badly wrong?

 

[TheGaffer]

While some of our best players are quality A League standard, we appear to have a very thin squad lacking quality.

 

I hate to do it, but just look at the lack of depth in our squad compared to for example, Victory.

 

Now who are going to put up their hands and admit they've got our list management/recruiting/player development badly wrong?

JD is responsible for list management.

The club sold away all its young talent to balance books and now paying the price.

[interstatefan]

 

He just can't last the whole of the season if we continue to play like this, the only game really where things looked positive was of course the first match away to Sydney. The week after it was frustrating football, pass pass pass another pass out to the wing then pass back to defenders, BORING. 

[raw10]

 

 

Murfy1 you have made a strong case. I even had a look at the Melbourne Rebels average attendance figures and Heart were below them. SM should be released.

Why would he be let go when the club overall is on the up, it doesn't make sense.

I do agree with Murfy1 that a Melbourne club has enormous potential, but you need some investment to break into the market, especially given how established Victory were. Melbourne Heart were never going to achieve its potential under the owners it had.

Basic, I don't think SM did a bad job with Melbourne Heart, and with more resources, Melbourne City as a club are doing better overall. I really don't think it's the time to be calling for SM to go.

 

 

JVS was the highest paid coach in the League in his first stint.

 

The playing roster was never the worst in the league.

 

We play in the best football pitch in Australia (unlike Newcastle, Mariners and Perth, all of whom have played in Grand Finals).

 

I don't know about the training facilities, people say the were poor, but were they any worse than what they get in central and Sth America, and their players seem to do OK.  The wheelie bins get mentioned, but ice is ice, whatever the container it comes in.

Football is a simple game.  IMO these are the last 5 percenters.  Doesn't explain 4 going on 5 years of utter failure.

 

Bring back the wheelie bin IMO, our players should be reminded that they will go back to using these kind of facilities if they don't lift their game!

Edited November 4, 2014 by raw10

[HEARTinator]

In Jan 2012, the Tards sacked Durakovic after 14 games when it had only three wins, six draws and five losses for a total of 15 pts from a possible 42.

 

Let's see how lenient CFG is when we get to 14 games this season which just happens to be the last round before the AFC Asian Cup tourno from 9 to 31 Jan. Might the cup provide the ideal cover to sack an under performing coach 

Edited November 4, 2014 by HEARTinator

[belaguttman]

 

Bring back the wheelie bin IMO, our players should be reminded that they will go back to using these kind of facilities if they don't lift their game!

 

 

They need seeing eye dogs and glasses to find the goals, and a referral to a neurosurgeon for a spine implant.

[TheGaffer]

Results speak for themselves..

Last win in HAL fixture was March 1, 2014 v Tards, so thats 10 HAL games without a win.

Played 4 preseason friendly games against HAL teams for 1 win.

Played 1 FFA Cup game for loss.

 

I could go back further but the results don't get any better....total 32 games since start of 2013/2014 season for 7 wins

 

One win in last 15 games against HAL opposition....

[MHFCROB24]

Results speak for themselves..

Last win in HAL fixture was March 1, 2014 v Tards, so thats 10 HAL games without a win.

Played 4 preseason friendly games against HAL teams for 1 win.

Played 1 FFA Cup game for loss.

 

I could go back further but the results don't get any better....total 32 games since start of 2013/2014 season for 7 wins

 

One win in last 15 games against HAL opposition....

It's not until it is written down do you see how bad it is.

[silva10]

 

Results speak for themselves..

Last win in HAL fixture was March 1, 2014 v Tards, so thats 10 HAL games without a win.

Played 4 preseason friendly games against HAL teams for 1 win.

Played 1 FFA Cup game for loss.

 

I could go back further but the results don't get any better....total 32 games since start of 2013/2014 season for 7 wins

 

One win in last 15 games against HAL opposition....

It's not until it is written down do you see how bad it is.

 

 

Yes I think it does

 

I can't help thinking if we lose on Saturday then that is JVS gone

[Jovan]

I feel the same Silva. Added to that even if we win it may just delay the inevitable. Going forward I can't see JVS making it to Christmas. I think his goose got cooked months ago. Not using the last Visa spot and Aussie Marquee IMO is just dumb! These 2 players alone could change the entire squad although even if we did sign 2 quality players the likelyhood of them been injured and unavailable would be high.

[silva10]

I feel the same Silva. Added to that even if we win it may just delay the inevitable. Going forward I can't see JVS making it to Christmas. I think his goose got cooked months ago. Not using the last Visa spot and Aussie Marquee IMO is just dumb! These 2 players alone could change the entire squad although even if we did sign 2 quality players the likelyhood of them been injured and unavailable would be high.

 

I do think people got carried away because of the buy out Jovan

 

However, it does sound as if the FFA changed some rules to prevent Melbourne getting a few players from City.

 

It seems to me that not siging the Aussie Marquee was deliberate and wait until December for our preferred choice. It now looks like a gamble we shouldn't have taken. I just don't know why we couldn't get another Visa player though. That one does leave me shaking my head.

[n i k o]

I would love to find out some important aspects regarding the players we have and their appointments to the club. Currently we know man for man compared to every other team we are one of the weakest clubs in the league. So why have we entered this season in such a position.

The first scenario is that the city group gave full reign to the people of the club to build a team that would fit within their vision, so they let people like Didulica and JVS to buy whichever players they wanted to make this happen. Now Didulica is player recruiter, so he goes out and finds players for JVS. Let's say Didulica has done his job and found a bunch of players for every position for JVS to choose from, better players that would improve the team from left back to striker. Then jvs chooses which positions he wants to improve. In this scenario jvs is clearly and utterly at fault because he has been given everything and clearly made the wrong decisions.

Scenario number two is similar to scenario one where CFG has given the club freedom to function as they see fit to achieve their vision. But let's say as an example Didulica has found 4 players for left back and not one of them is any better than Garruccio. JVS says well there's no point replacing Garruccio when we can play and utilise a young Socceroo. So left back stays the same. In this case it is Didulica who has been incapable of doing his job, but on the surface it seems JVS has chosen not to make a change to left back position. This same scenario can be applied to every other position we are struggling with.

Scenario three sees CFG take more control over the decisions of who and which positions are to be changed. They say to the club that we want to be playing attacking football and we want you to focus your efforts on bringing in players that will be attacking minded like Duff, Mooy, Koren, Villa, Kennedy. Didulica is able to arrange these players to come to the club, and doesn't put in the same effort to strengthen our weak back line as per the instructions of CFG. JVS is left with a very capable forward line on paper but a defensively weak back line. Now there's a lot of grey area amongst all these scenarios and probably different scenarios are possible but I think that along the chain of command something like one of these scenarios has happened and someone has seriously made a mess of the current players we have playing for us, but who has made that mistake?

So we can blame JVS for this but it may not be as clear cut as that. Obviously there's other factors as well such as how were set up to play, tactics etc. but again is JVS responsible for this, is he being instructed to play like this no matter what. Because with our current group of players we are incapable of playing "the city way." I'm not protecting JVS, I'm just admitting that I don't know that answers to this. I could speculate what I think is happening but I don't think any one of us know 100% what's going on behind the scenes.

Anyway these are the questions I would like to know answers to as they would explain a hell of a lot, and I think when the FRG have their next meeting these questions should be raised if they haven't already.

[heart_fan10]

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

[CityHeart]

these things take time, and it wouldn't surprise me if the whole football department is changed. 

 

Most big companies, when they take over another dont go nuts straight away. They let it settle, analyse the situation then make the more serious changes over time. This group didnt do all their changes at Manchester City in their first off-season either.

 

The only thing which still grinds my gears, and I don't really have an answer for is why was JVS given a 3 year deal? Why was that needed? We are not talking the creme de la creme of coaches even for A-league standards - there was no need or rush or desperation to sign this guy on whatever terms he demanded.

 

Just strange.

 

But I do have a feeling that in a football sense, not business, this next off-season will be when the real change starts to happen.

[n i k o]

Perhaps by giving him three years it gives assurance that if things are going according to plan they will allow the coach to build the team into a championship winning team over the course of those years. And the coaching position is one they can simply pay out and move on from so maybe they were willing to do this if the job is not being done how they want.

Edited November 4, 2014 by n i k o

[Falastur]

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

 

Interesting. I'm skeptical (nothing against you, I'm just naturally skeptical of ITK claims), but I'll take the bait. Did your source have a time-frame?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Falastur

[loriente]

 

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

 

Interesting. I'm skeptical (nothing against you, I'm just naturally skeptical of ITK claims), but I'll take the bait. Did your source have a time-frame?

 

3 years

[rass]

Great analysis above and whilst it's all very valid, i do believe the starting point lies with what is happening between the players ears (short of replacing the whole team of course).

 

I look back to Rnd 1 and we were all over Sydney. We then fell behind but it wasn't long before we were back level again and finishing over them. We could easily have taken all 3 points.

So the team is full of confidence, evident by what i saw at training the week following that game. Great morale and enthusiasm in the group.

 

Dare I say it, but perhaps the team expected to win against Newcastle. Again early domination. Then, a goal against the run but we still managed to equalise - just. So the confidence is there to fight back but it probably has taken a bit of a hit as they didn't get the result they thought they would (and nearly lost).

 

Then comes the news of Villa's early exit and Koren's injury being more serious. So now there is more pressure on the team, especially coming into a derby.

 

We start great again and for 44 minutes, looked the goods - even managing to score directly after giving up a goal (a sign of a team still with confidence).

This was the real turning point of the season so far for me. Instead of going into the break with their heads up, we cough up a crap goal and the players are gutted. So then Victory get their heads up (no way Berisha would have scored that goal directly after half time had he not scored just before the break - he was on a yellow and moments away from hitting the destruct button and being sent off).

The rest is history. We can't fight back because confidence is shot.

 

Pressure on everyone at the club intensifies and the Adelaide then becomes even more important.

 

Again a great start and a goal to hit the lead. This is where you can tell the confidence is really down. We could have gone for the kill but we start sitting back. It's obvious to anyone watching that Adelaide are working back into the game. Germano gets injured, deflates the players even more. They score twice and we have no come back. Very similar pattern to last year.

 

I'm not sure what sort of sports psychology (or whatever it's called) they are doing, but I do believe they really need to invest here, big time.

 

Yeah some of our players aren't the best, but there's lots of duds in the other teams too, yet they still believe they can win. So they really need to develop mental strength and make it a culture - as many people on here have stated. Look at the Cats in 2007. They invested in it and look what happened to them with the same team and coach.

 

Look at last year for example. The majority of players are still there. So how could a team go from a losing everything to all of a sudden winning? The coach change was the catalyst for this but it wasn't the coaching that made them win - it was a reason for the players to develop confidence.

 

It starts with them and no matter how many changes we make at coaching level or above, the impact will only be temporary on the group unless they change their way mentally.

 

If they can't, then they need to go.

Edited November 5, 2014 by rass

[cadete]

these things take time, and it wouldn't surprise me if the whole football department is changed. 

 

Most big companies, when they take over another dont go nuts straight away. They let it settle, analyse the situation then make the more serious changes over time. This group didnt do all their changes at Manchester City in their first off-season either.

 

The only thing which still grinds my gears, and I don't really have an answer for is why was JVS given a 3 year deal? Why was that needed? We are not talking the creme de la creme of coaches even for A-league standards - there was no need or rush or desperation to sign this guy on whatever terms he demanded.

 

Just strange.

 

But I do have a feeling that in a football sense, not business, this next off-season will be when the real change starts to happen.

 

Perhaps by giving him three years it gives assurance that if things are going according to plan they will allow the coach to build the team into a championship winning team over the course of those years. And the coaching position is one they can simply pay out and move on from so maybe they were willing to do this if the job is not being done how they want.

Why does shit always have to take time for us... 

 

When there are countless examples of other A-League sides that with the change of a coach took no time at all to go from easybeats to finals bound.

 

FWIW JVS has now only won 29.87% of his games... as I have mentioned earlier JA of course proved that even a blind Whippet could coach a side to win 20.5% of their games. (If JVS form continues he should reach 22% by the Season's end.)

 

And for those interested his at 31.6% for his second stint in charge.

Edited November 5, 2014 by cadete

[Dylan]

the whole football department will be changed. Munn, Didulica, JVS are only temporary and will be gone with CFG bringing in their own people. From a very good source.

So is that because of the current performance? Or was this the plan all along? If it's the latter then it Seems like the people who said we will be a mini man city might be vindicated...

[belaguttman]

rass, I agree with you. The playing group has always had very fragile confidence, when all goes well they look and are unbeatable. As soon as something unexpected happens the anxiety levels soar and cohesion and thinking ability crumbles. Whether we are talking about individuals or groups there is a 'zone' of coherent thinking. Anxiety pushes us out of that zone into either chaotic thinking or rigidity, we see features of both of these in our team, we either lose shape, spray balls wildly, or play in a predictable and unproductive way. The anxiety also kicks in when we go on our rare but brief yearly winning streak, as sure as night follows day we get to a game where we are favourites and the cohesion disappears, the anxiety starts and we lose and keep losing. I don't know whether the franchise invests in sports psychology, if they don't, they should. If they do then they need to do better.

Edited November 5, 2014 by belaguttman

[Kiro Kompiro]

I don't believe sport psychologists make all that much of a difference.  The players themselves need to do the business.

 

There are people who submit when the chips are down and there are other who keep going no matter what. No amount of talking will change either.  

 

We have too many mentally weak players.    

 

Moreover, when someone from outside starts telling telling them some home truths, these same players turn on him and sabotage that person.  As a  Western Bulldog's fan, I know this scenario all too well.

 

 

To change this we need to change the people.  But then we do stupid  things llke 3 year deals to JVS and 4 year deals to Paartaluu.  This should never ever happen.  Everyone should get 2 years max.

[cadete]

rass, I agree with you. The playing group has always had very fragile confidence, when all goes well they look and are unbeatable. As soon as something unexpected happens the anxiety levels soar and cohesion and thinking ability crumbles. Whether we are talking about individuals or groups there is a 'zone' of coherent thinking. Anxiety pushes us out of that zone into either chaotic thinking or rigidity, we see features of both of these in our team, we either lose shape, spray balls wildly, or play in a predictable and unproductive way. The anxiety also kicks in when we go on our rare but brief yearly winning streak, as sure as night follows day we get to a game where we are favourites and the cohesion disappears, the anxiety starts and we lose and keep losing. I don't know whether the franchise invests in sports psychology, if they don't, they should. If they do then they need to do better.

The best opportunity to get rid of this kind of shit was for us to start afresh with the club's rebranding...

 

Instead we rehired a losing coach with a losing record on a winless streak.

Edited November 5, 2014 by cadete

[Kiro Kompiro]

rass, I agree with you. The playing group has always had very fragile confidence, when all goes well they look and are unbeatable. As soon as something unexpected happens the anxiety levels soar and cohesion and thinking ability crumbles. Whether we are talking about individuals or groups there is a 'zone' of coherent thinking. Anxiety pushes us out of that zone into either chaotic thinking or rigidity, we see features of both of these in our team, we either lose shape, spray balls wildly, or play in a predictable and unproductive way. The anxiety also kicks in when we go on our rare but brief yearly winning streak, as sure as night follows day we get to a game where we are favourites and the cohesion disappears, the anxiety starts and we lose and keep losing. I don't know whether the franchise invests in sports psychology, if they don't, they should. If they do then they need to do better.

 

 

But Bell is that learned or innate?

 

I've grown up with people who never dealt with pressure in kindergarten who are the same as working adults.  If they're mentally weak as adults, then I think even if it was a learned response, its probably too late to change them.

[jw1739]

Some good points being made. I can't believe that we have become part of CFG, and re-named and re-badged as Melbourne City to fit the CFG "global brand" only to be allowed to languish season after season at the bottom of the A-League. If it was all some form of accounting sleight of hand then why bother with all the fuss of changing name and colours etc. No, I'm sure that the stated intentions of us being the best in Australia and Asia are genuine.

 

CFG are in the middle of getting New York City going, and my best guess is that they decided to leave the Melbourne hierarchy in place pro tem as a short-term convenient decision whilst they get to know the Australian football environment.

 

I expected more dramatic change, and I got that wrong. I now lean towards the CityHeart position above. The changes will come, but they will be made carefully over the next 2-3 years.

[CityHeart]

Perhaps by giving him three years it gives assurance that if things are going according to plan they will allow the coach to build the team into a championship winning team over the course of those years. And the coaching position is one they can simply pay out and move on from so maybe they were willing to do this if the job is not being done how they want.

 

well if things go to plan then there is no need to change a coach and you can extend a contract as you go.

 

Sure, if a payout isnt a worry then it is no big deal - but I hope the length of the silly deal isnt the thing keeping us from doing what we have to do.

[Torn Asunder]

I'm pretty sure for key personale within the club, all contracts are performance based, with reviews against KPIs scheduled at predetermined dates, with continuation of contracts dependent on hitting targets.  

[belaguttman]

 

rass, I agree with you. The playing group has always had very fragile confidence, when all goes well they look and are unbeatable. As soon as something unexpected happens the anxiety levels soar and cohesion and thinking ability crumbles. Whether we are talking about individuals or groups there is a 'zone' of coherent thinking. Anxiety pushes us out of that zone into either chaotic thinking or rigidity, we see features of both of these in our team, we either lose shape, spray balls wildly, or play in a predictable and unproductive way. The anxiety also kicks in when we go on our rare but brief yearly winning streak, as sure as night follows day we get to a game where we are favourites and the cohesion disappears, the anxiety starts and we lose and keep losing. I don't know whether the franchise invests in sports psychology, if they don't, they should. If they do then they need to do better.

 

 

But Bell is that learned or innate?

 

I've grown up with people who never dealt with pressure in kindergarten who are the same as working adults.  If they're mentally weak as adults, then I think even if it was a learned response, its probably too late to change them.

 

Its always a mixture of both. It isn't just about the individuals, individually we have a whole bunch of very competitive people, many of whom have won trophies and played at high levels. Its also about what happens to them as a group. Group theorists talk about the 'group mind' a theoretical entity that is greater than the sum of the parts. A simple way of thinking about it is that once there is pressure on the team (we concede or are expected to win a game) each individual responds to that pressure in different ways: some use it for motivation, some become aggressive, some withdraw into themselves, some look for a leader within the group, some pair up and so form sub groups. Sometimes the group unites around blaming a scapegoat (always a recipe for disaster), some become really inflexible. The end result, the 'group mind' isn't just a linear addition of all those individual parts. What concerns me is that even when you change one individual, the dynamics in the whole group changes, in the case of our team the dynamics have remained constant from year 1 despite changes in group membership. Something is going on (or not going on) that is keeping the group dynamics frozen. A good sports psychologist with experience in group psychology should be able to help.

[jw1739]

I'm pretty sure for key personale within the club, all contracts are performance based, with reviews against KPIs scheduled at predetermined dates, with continuation of contracts dependent on hitting targets.  

Quite so. Performance-based contracts may have no pay-out obligations. If you don't meet the KPIs then the principal can void the contract.

[KSK_47]

rass, I agree with you. The playing group has always had very fragile confidence, when all goes well they look and are unbeatable. As soon as something unexpected happens the anxiety levels soar and cohesion and thinking ability crumbles. Whether we are talking about individuals or groups there is a 'zone' of coherent thinking. Anxiety pushes us out of that zone into either chaotic thinking or rigidity, we see features of both of these in our team, we either lose shape, spray balls wildly, or play in a predictable and unproductive way. The anxiety also kicks in when we go on our rare but brief yearly winning streak, as sure as night follows day we get to a game where we are favourites and the cohesion disappears, the anxiety starts and we lose and keep losing. I don't know whether the franchise invests in sports psychology, if they don't, they should. If they do then they need to do better.

It's interesting you bring up the issue of a sport psychologist because IMO to be a good manager you also need to be a good psychologist. You may not necessarily have have to have a PhD in it but it's a huge part of a successful manager.

Again, I can't be bothered going over the same examples we've been over at length but there is a reason certain people have success follow them.

You want to talk about psychology, look for patterns in behavior. If the same thing happens to the same person again and again (particularly in a number of different environments and scenarios) its highly unlikely it's the fault of anything outside of their own decisions/ability.

Obviously people can learn and adapt but this should be happening before they are given jobs at the top.

Edited November 5, 2014 by KSK_47

[belaguttman]

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

[cadete]

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

Edited November 5, 2014 by cadete

[KSK_47]

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

A few more items to ad to the list of "things JVS needs before he unleashes a season of attacking brilliance on the league" eh?

Edited November 5, 2014 by KSK_47

[KSK_47]

*speaking of patterns in behavior, I am on a football forum getting annoyed about things out of my control again.

 

Must stop

[belaguttman]

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Then JVS needs to improve quickly, get advice from someone who can improve things or give the job to someone who can do it better.

[jw1739]

 

Every manager needs to understand something about motivation and group dynamics of course but no manager will be an expert in every facet of team performance, just like we need a good goal keeping coach, we also need a good sports psychologist

 

JVS has been rubbing a significant portion of his squad the wrong way for years now... its pretty obvious now that even Muscat is better at relating to players than JVS has ever been.

 

Heffernan and Colosimo being the first cabs off that rank?