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Melbourne City vs Adelaide United - Saturday 23 August, Alice Springs


Murfy1
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I understand very well the difference, but what does that have to do with the current situation regarding the club?

 

The difference is that the best can come in an implement massive change in a short time period. And I would have liked it if City made a big statement by getting someone capable of this

That is one of the biggest differences between the best coaches and the rest. But remember that we are a tiny club in the grand scheme of things so I'd assume that your not expecting a mourinho or van gaal to be hired for our club.

 

Well obviously I wasnt expecting someone of that pedigree, but when we keep the same coach whose best result was once getting us unceremoniously booted from a first round of playoff, and we have seen little in the way of improvements despite having a lot more resources at his disposal surely you can understand peoples frustration/concern.

Yeah obviously you didn't mean that. Maybe jvs won't be able to have the influence to make us into champions, maybe he will. My point is I'm trying to be open minded though as to the implications of his role.

What are his KPIs?

What do CFG consider a successful first season?

How much room was there under the cap regarding players already under contract for 2014/15 prior to CFG takover?

How much influence did CFG have over what types of players were signed?

Is our current playing list a reflection of what jvs wanted?

These are just some of the questions amongst many others that need to be understood to get a grasp of exactly what we're dealing wth here. The good thing for us is if in fact jvs is fully responsible for player selections and we are not achieving the level required he won't last long. You only need to look at Man City first season under CFG to see if the results aren't as expected heads will role, also taking into consideration that at the time of the Hughes sacking Man City were sitting in at sixth position.

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The issue of 'resources' is a vexed one for me. Having better training facilities, better recovery facilities, etc would never have made me a professional footballer - heck a whole batallion of Stephen Danks would have been unsuccessful. Having better quality players will make a difference and having better coaches will also make a difference - as an example from the AFL I give you Collingwood vs North Melbourne. So City has new coaching staff and I consider JVS "new" as in between he had a stint in the Mexican League where Chivas made it to the finals. The club has brought in some quality in Duff and Koren. BUT there are still a lot players from last season, some who given new contracts. So now it comes down to JVS&co to improve these players enough so that they make the top 6. 

 

tbf, North Melbourne's facilities are pretty damn good now, but point taken since we were the team of the 90s whilst training out of a rusty old Arden Street.

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Just on the alleged large amount of player retention/re-signings, and alleged limited change, I believe it's worth laying out the squads and personnel changes between last season and this pre-season:

 

 

At the start of last season we had:

 

1         Andrew Redmayne

2         Jeremy Walker

3         Rob Wielaert

4         Orlando Engelaar

5         Sam Mitchinson

6         Patrick Gerhardt

7         Iain Ramsay

8         Massimo Murdocca

9         Harry Kewell

10     Jonathan Germano

11     David Williams

12     Aziz Behich

13     Jason Hoffman

14     David Vrankovic

15     Ben Garuccio

16     Tando Velaphi

17     Stefan Mauk

18     Nick Kalmar

19     Mate Dugandzic

20     Patrick Kisnorbo

21     Golgol Mebrahtu

22     Dylan Macallister

23     Michael Mifsud

24     Andrea Migliorini 

 

 

Players released:

 

1 Jeremy Walker

2 Sam Mitchinson

3 Orlando Engelaar

4 Patrick Gerhardt

5 Harry Kewell

6 Aziz Behich

7 David Vrankovic

8 Golgol Mebrahtu

9 Dylan Macallister

10 Michael Mifsud

11 Adrea Migliorini

 

 

Players who were contracted and couldn’t be released:

 

1         Andrew Redmayne

2         Rob Wielaert

3         Iain Ramsay

4         Massimo Murdocca

5         Jonathan Germano

6         Nick Kalmar

7         Mate Dugandzic

 

 

Players who were given new contracts:

 

1 Jason Hoffman

2 Tando Velaphi

3 David Williams (was Aus. Marquee, now under the cap)

4 Patrick Kisnorbo

5 Ben Garuccio (extension)

6 Stefan Mauk (extension)

 

 

 

So we actually got rid of about half the squad we had last season, with 11 players leaving the club. 7 players (Redmayne, Ramsay, Murdocca, Kalmar, Wielaert, Germano, Dugandzic) were going nowhere, because they were given contracts in the Aloisi era that extended to next season (the club simply wasn't able to pay them out, there's reasons why all A-League clubs only extremely rarely force players out [i can't actually think of a clear example], and as they were all contracted they wouldn't leave). And only 4 players were given brand new contracts (Hoffman, Velaphi, Williams, Kisnorbo), with Garuccio and Mauk really making it 9 players who were contracted for next season (as they didn't get brand new contracts, but contract extensions), and people only really complain about 2 of those 4 players being re-signed, namely Hoffman and Velaphi, and there are actually not unreasonable arguments for both of them being re-signed (signed on minimum wages, Australian salary cap players, and decent squad players. You don't have to buy those arguments, but those arguments are not unreasonable, that is there's some sense behind them). But more importantly, whether you like Velaphi and Hoffman or not, the fate of those 2 players is never going to significantly alter how the whole team will fare next season, so their re-signings are ultimately unimportant. 

 

 

So only by the end of next season will it be possible to have an entirely new squad of players signed within the Man City era (except for maybe 1 player, Redmayne).

 

I actually think a number of players who have stuck around from Melbourne Heart will come good next season, but their progress and improvement from the last 2 seasons was always going to take a little time. And if they don't improve, they will leave the club when the club can get rid of them, namely at the end of next season. 

 

BTW I am not of the opinion that the above facts about the squad let the coaches off the hook. I don't think there's a logical argument there that would excuse the coaches for next season. So I believe the coaches can still be pretty toughly graded next season. But still, miracles cannot be excepted from them. Coaches ultimately need the right players, and no coach bar Aloisi would have wanted the squad listed at the top of this post.

 

 

So there's been change. And there will be more change. But wholesale change simply couldn't happen between last season and next season. But I'm quite hopeful for next season that the new signings will much more than compensate for the team being stuck with some old players from last season.

Edited by Murfy1
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I understand very well the difference, but what does that have to do with the current situation regarding the club?

The difference is that the best can come in an implement massive change in a short time period. And I would have liked it if City made a big statement by getting someone capable of this That is one of the biggest differences between the best coaches and the rest. But remember that we are a tiny club in the grand scheme of things so I'd assume that your not expecting a mourinho or van gaal to be hired for our club.

Ghuangzhou have Lippi.... (I get they are a bigger side than us, but we should be aiming to be right up with the best in asia)

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7 players (Redmayne, Ramsay, Murdocca, Kalmar, Wielaert, Germano, Dugandzic) were going nowhere, because they were given contracts in the Aloisi era that extended to next season (the club simply wasn't able to pay them out, there's reasons why all A-League clubs only extremely rarely force players out [i can't actually think of a clear example], and as they were all contracted they wouldn't leave). 

 

The Visitors have mutually terminated a number of contracts of players during the season. Julius Davies, Francesco Stella, Isaka Cernak and Jonathan Bru all released while under contract in the past 2 seasons.

 

If players aren't meeting expectation we need to be looking to move them on, be it by releasing them of trying to offload them to other clubs. 

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7 players (Redmayne, Ramsay, Murdocca, Kalmar, Wielaert, Germano, Dugandzic) were going nowhere, because they were given contracts in the Aloisi era that extended to next season (the club simply wasn't able to pay them out, there's reasons why all A-League clubs only extremely rarely force players out [i can't actually think of a clear example], and as they were all contracted they wouldn't leave). 

 

The Visitors have mutually terminated a number of contracts of players during the season. Julius Davies, Francesco Stella, Isaka Cernak and Jonathan Bru all released while under contract in the past 2 seasons.

 

If players aren't meeting expectation we need to be looking to move them on, be it by releasing them of trying to offload them to other clubs. 

 

 

The key is by mutual consent. That is they found other gainful employment. The task will be for future administraions of the club to be well connected enough to be able to offer gainful employment to players so "mutual consent" can be reached. And yes I am aware that being owned by CFG does provide the club with this option eight now but I suspect that the internal mechanics have not been worked out.

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I understand very well the difference, but what does that have to do with the current situation regarding the club?

The difference is that the best can come in an implement massive change in a short time period. And I would have liked it if City made a big statement by getting someone capable of thisThat is one of the biggest differences between the best coaches and the rest. But remember that we are a tiny club in the grand scheme of things so I'd assume that your not expecting a mourinho or van gaal to be hired for our club. Ghuangzhou have Lippi.... (I get they are a bigger side than us, but we should be aiming to be right up with the best in asia)

Besides big name proven coaches, there are some promising prospects in our back yard and abroad. Even if Damien Mori (who by all accounts gets pretty good plaudits) was signed, I would feel more comfortable tbh.

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7 players (Redmayne, Ramsay, Murdocca, Kalmar, Wielaert, Germano, Dugandzic) were going nowhere, because they were given contracts in the Aloisi era that extended to next season (the club simply wasn't able to pay them out, there's reasons why all A-League clubs only extremely rarely force players out [i can't actually think of a clear example], and as they were all contracted they wouldn't leave). 

 

The Visitors have mutually terminated a number of contracts of players during the season. Julius Davies, Francesco Stella, Isaka Cernak and Jonathan Bru all released while under contract in the past 2 seasons.

 

If players aren't meeting expectation we need to be looking to move them on, be it by releasing them of trying to offload them to other clubs. 

 

 

 

Isaka Cernak, Jonathan Bru and Julius Davies were all released mid-season during the final season they were contracted to the club. Melbourne Heart did that with no less than 3 players last season with Golgol Mebrahtu, Dylan Macallister and Michael Mifsud.

 

Only Francesco Stella was released with longer than 1 year remaining on his contract. So he's the only good comparison to the several players listed above.

 

And as NewCovert said the key is 'mutual content'. Even with players with less than 1 season left on their contracts, like Golgol and Macallister, they nearly always only leave if they have another club to go to (with Golgol going to WSW and DMac to Hong Kong). And the problem with our several players is they seem settled at our club, and especially with the takeover all appearances suggest that they want to see out their contracts until the end of next season. It's perhaps the negative of being an attractive club for footballers, and we might have to get a little used to it in the future (but presumably recruitment will be much improved in the future, so it should be a rare occurrence).

 

I agree that the club should be more active with improving the playing roster, and their was some pretty positive signs of that last season with 3 players being released early and a further 8 players being released as well. And I think there's a good chance that the club will 'motivate' some players to leave early again next season as well. But still, the club just can't do whatever it wants with it's playing list, especially with the numerous regulations that exist for A-League clubs and there being significant player power in Australia. Contracts are binding, and the much more important thing in the future IMO is to get player contracts and extensions right in the first instance, than rather having to worry and try to mutually terminate contracts early.

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Some thoughts on those players lists:

 

1.  Why was  Vrankovic released when we are so lacking in CB's?

 

2.  Players who were contracted and couldn’t be released:

 

1         Andrew Redmayne

2         Rob Wielaert

3         Iain Ramsay

4         Massimo Murdocca

5         Jonathan Germano

6         Nick Kalmar

7         Mate Dugandzic

 

I can't see any other club wanting these guys, and yet we give them more than 12 month contracts?

 

I can see all of these guys playing their last season as full pro footballers.  Yes even Mate- he is playing for his career.

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