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The Coronavirus Thread (We nearly didn't see City in the 2021 Grand Final)


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1 hour ago, haz said:

My grandma is losing her marbles being in isolation. It sucks!

Call often! I'm chatting with my folks 3 times a week. I'm even letting my mum talk about articles she read on the internet, uninterupted. She's loving being able to talk away coz my dad usually walks off and hides in his caravan in the backyard. 

I'm assuming your Grandma lives alone? That would be tough.

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20 hours ago, moops said:

They take a swab from the sinus and look for the pathogen in a lab, the symptoms seem very similar though.

The thing I don't understand is that we keep saying Australia is doing the most testing, when the criteria for testing is people who have been overseas or ones who have had contact with them, or critical emergency services.

There are still a heap of people working and none are being tested. I think that is one reason America has such high numbers, they are testing everyone.

I've been unable to find an explicit statement as to whether the tests being conducted in Australia are specific or not specific to the Cov-19 virus. Nor whether all countries and authorities are using the same test. Nor can I find any statement about the detection limit.

The criteria for qualifying for a test are indeed limited to people who think they have the symptoms of Cov-19 and are  recommended for the test by their GP, those known to be or suspected to have been in contact with someone with Cov-19, people who have been overseas and people in the emergency /health services.

I think that I read that Victoria has conducted 67,000 tests up to a couple of days ago. 1,212 cases were detected by the test, of which 736 have recovered. I assume multiple tests are conducted on known cases. So we might guess that round about 60,000 individual people have been tested in Victoria, and in epidemiological terms from a skewed cohort. In numerical terms Victoria has a population of around 6.36m, so it's a fairly small sample.

One hopes that the modelling justifies wrecking the economy. A very tough call for the various governments.

Latest numbers: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/victoria-coronavirus-cases-rise/12135968

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2 hours ago, HeartFc said:

Call often! I'm chatting with my folks 3 times a week. I'm even letting my mum talk about articles she read on the internet, uninterupted. She's loving being able to talk away coz my dad usually walks off and hides in his caravan in the backyard. 

I'm assuming your Grandma lives alone? That would be tough.

She lives with Grandad, we set them up with a tablet for video calling about a year ago so we've been calling them about once a day. But yea ol' grandma has got full on paranoia. Currently looking into if any medications have recently changed.

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16 hours ago, jw1739 said:

I've been unable to find an explicit statement as to whether the tests being conducted in Australia are specific or not specific to the Cov-19 virus. Nor whether all countries and authorities are using the same test. Nor can I find any statement about the detection limit.

The criteria for qualifying for a test are indeed limited to people who think they have the symptoms of Cov-19 and are  recommended for the test by their GP, those known to be or suspected to have been in contact with someone with Cov-19, people who have been overseas and people in the emergency /health services.

I think that I read that Victoria has conducted 67,000 tests up to a couple of days ago. 1,212 cases were detected by the test, of which 736 have recovered. I assume multiple tests are conducted on known cases. So we might guess that round about 60,000 individual people have been tested in Victoria, and in epidemiological terms from a skewed cohort. In numerical terms Victoria has a population of around 6.36m, so it's a fairly small sample.

One hopes that the modelling justifies wrecking the economy. A very tough call for the various governments.

Latest numbers: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/victoria-coronavirus-cases-rise/12135968

total bs, we have nothing compared to Taiwan or South Korea.

I am working and nothing is being done, a construction site got closed down for one day because of a corona virus dude in south Melbourne, it's all back to  normal now, every site is run like normal, deliveries and working close is normal. Imagine how much Andrews is paying the unions to keep business as usual, we need essential workers to pay tax now.

Edited by moops
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One thing I am finding incongruous is that we now have a 4-day public holiday break and yet we're in a lock-down and no-one is supposed to be outside their home unless deemed "essential." 

Otherwise apart from it being a lot quieter than usual (in the suburbs) - almost like Australia 20 years ago - I observe many people seemingly making no attempt to obey the physical distancing regulation.

I don't really think we will have a handle on this until we start testing a significant % of the population.

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On 10/04/2020 at 2:45 AM, moops said:

total bs, we have nothing compared to Taiwan or South Korea.

I am working and nothing is being done, a construction site got closed down for one day because of a corona virus dude in south Melbourne, it's all back to  normal now, every site is run like normal, deliveries and working close is normal. Imagine how much Andrews is paying the unions to keep business as usual, we need essential workers to pay tax now.

Well they should be managing those sites better than that. Pretty poor.

Having said that though, it looks like keeping construction going was a very smart move. The vast majority of infections appear to involve leisure activities with alcohol. Cruise ships, weddings, parties etc. These look like the really high risk activities.

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14 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

Also if the story is true about the Tasmanian doctors going out for dinner and spreading the virus :droy:

From what I can understand it has already been deemed as a rumour and has been denied (although that might only be to save face)

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1 hour ago, haz said:

From what I can understand it has already been deemed as a rumour and has been denied (although that might only be to save face)

The Chief Medical Officer has withdrawn the allegation, but I have not seen anything that definitely says that the gathering did not take place.

I've seen that many State Ministers break their own lock-downs that I don't trust anything that anyone says these days.

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16 hours ago, kingofhearts said:

The Ruby princess fiasco has to go down as one of the biggest NSW government fuck ups in history.

Not just NSW - the Feds were involved too. The Border Farce is a Federal agency.

What I find incredible is that the people heading up the organizations and governments responsible are still in their jobs.

If the fucking government had closed our borders immediately it knew the potential that this virus has we would not have the problem as it exists today, and life in Australia could have continued more or less as normal.

Absolute incompetence.

As it is today we are locked-down for an indefinite period and no-one has any idea of how we are going to get out of this.

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My uncle in the UK has been admitted to ICU and put on a ventilator. He's 60, was in pretty good general health, and works as a nurse for the NHS, which is presumably how he contracted it. He had previously been isolating at home having had a confirmed diagnosis about a week ago but deteriorated in the last 24hrs. 

I don't post this for sympathy or anything like that, but it's easy to just read anonymous numbers and exponential charts. Feels different when it's someone you know.  

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12 minutes ago, Tangerine said:

My uncle in the UK has been admitted to ICU and put on a ventilator. He's 60, was in pretty good general health, and works as a nurse for the NHS, which is presumably how he contracted it. He had previously been isolating at home having had a confirmed diagnosis about a week ago but deteriorated in the last 24hrs. 

I don't post this for sympathy or anything like that, but it's easy to just read anonymous numbers and exponential charts. Feels different when it's someone you know.  

Exactly. Nothing more real than having a family member in a serious condition. 

Your uncle's experience seems to be a pattern, slow recovery and sudden turn for the worse. Unfortunately health care workers seem to be getting exposed to higher viral loads and therefore suffering stronger symptoms. Hopefully years of exposure to all sorts of bugs would've strengthen his immune system. I wish him a speedy recovery.

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Tangerine said:

My uncle in the UK has been admitted to ICU and put on a ventilator. He's 60, was in pretty good general health, and works as a nurse for the NHS, which is presumably how he contracted it. He had previously been isolating at home having had a confirmed diagnosis about a week ago but deteriorated in the last 24hrs. 

I don't post this for sympathy or anything like that, but it's easy to just read anonymous numbers and exponential charts. Feels different when it's someone you know.  

From what I've read the "critical time" is around 10 days after symptoms develop.

Every good wish to your uncle and yourself mate. Try to keep positive.

It certainly is different when it's someone close to you. it's not just numbers - they are all real people. That's why I believe Australia's policy should be "elimination" rather than just "containment." 

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4 hours ago, jw1739 said:

From what I've read the "critical time" is around 10 days after symptoms develop.

Every good wish to your uncle and yourself mate. Try to keep positive.

It certainly is different when it's someone close to you. it's not just numbers - they are all real people. That's why I believe Australia's policy should be "elimination" rather than just "containment." 

Elimination at what cost though? The longer we keep these measures in place, the further into debt the government and economy go and the more severe the recession/depression. Indirectly that will see suicides, homelessness, poverty and drug use skyrocket and potentially you kill more people than you save. I'm certainly not suggesting its a black and white distinction, but i think we need to be very, very careful we don't end up with a cure worse than the disease.

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5 hours ago, bt50 said:

Elimination at what cost though? The longer we keep these measures in place, the further into debt the government and economy go and the more severe the recession/depression. Indirectly that will see suicides, homelessness, poverty and drug use skyrocket and potentially you kill more people than you save. I'm certainly not suggesting its a black and white distinction, but i think we need to be very, very careful we don't end up with a cure worse than the disease.

Glad you weren't voting during WWII - we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them in the fields or until our budget forecast becomes too dire.

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19 hours ago, bt50 said:

Elimination at what cost though? The longer we keep these measures in place, the further into debt the government and economy go and the more severe the recession/depression. Indirectly that will see suicides, homelessness, poverty and drug use skyrocket and potentially you kill more people than you save. I'm certainly not suggesting its a black and white distinction, but i think we need to be very, very careful we don't end up with a cure worse than the disease.

I'd be interested to know how much value you place on a human life. And whether there's a sliding scale rather like the insured value of a motor vehicle. 

I certainly don't have the answers to what we're facing, and indeed although I am self-isolating because of age I think some of the restrictions are ludicrous - for example, a parent not allowed to give a learner-driver some "experience hours" - I would have thought a period of low traffic volume would be ideal for giving a learner more confidence in handling the car.

I also think that the statistics are being poorly reported. For example, the graphs repeatedly show Victoria as having 1,300-odd cases. What's not mentioned is that over 1,100 of those have recovered, and the remainder are either in self-isolation, isolation, hospital or have died. There are not 1,300-odd cases wandering around the community infecting thousands of other people. Every time a new case is detected action is taken to try to prevent that case infecting others.

Of course there are still cases that have not been detected, but I don't think that the situation is as bad here as pure numbers are suggesting. What I do think is that every effort should be made to eliminate the virus from Australia, because it is not morally defensible to go for an alternative solution that will likely condemn a number of people, mostly in a particular demographic, to death.

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22 hours ago, HeartFc said:

More and more evidence coming out pointing to a Wuhan lab leak. 

More and more evidence point to this being some evil global social experiment with fake news, fake stats and fake science being peddled at an unprecedented rate.

 

The journalist and politicians are all of a sudden are more experts in the fields of medical science than scientist, and the WHO and UN are peddling their fake stats to support their move to a one world health system that will push their dirty vaccines, and silence and ostracize anyone that doesn't follow their fake narrative.

GATESDEPOPULATIONVACCINES

Bill Gates’ Vaccine Crime Record: 496,000 Paralyzed Children In India And More

HAFApril 18, 2020

Indian doctors blame Gates for a devastating vaccine-strain polio epidemic that paralyzed 496,000 children between 2000 and 2017. In 2017, the Indian Government dialled back Gates’ vaccine regimen and evicted Gates. Polio paralysis rates dropped precipitously.

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

“Vaccines, for Bill Gates, are a strategic philanthropy that feed his many vaccine-related businesses (including Microsoft’s ambition to control a global vac ID enterprise) and give him dictatorial control over global health policy – the spear tip of corporate neo-imperialism.

Gates’ obsession with vaccines seems fueled by a messianic conviction that he is ordained to save the world with technology and a god-like willingness to experiment with the lives of lesser humans.

Promising to eradicate Polio with $1.2 billion, Gates took control of India ‘s National Advisory Board (NAB) and mandated 50 polio vaccines (up from 5) to every child before age 5.

Indian doctors blame the Gates campaign for a devastating vaccine-strain polio epidemic that paralyzed 496,000 children between 2000 and 2017.

In 2017, the Indian Government dialed back Gates’ vaccine regimen and evicted Gates and his cronies from the NAB. Polio paralysis rates dropped precipitously.

Evicted? Why not arrested & tried in a Court of Laws for Crime Against Humanity? The following hashtag is trending on social media: #jailBillGates

In 2017, the World Health Organization reluctantly admitted that the global polio explosion is predominantly vaccine strain, meaning it is coming from Gates’ Vaccine Program.

The most frightening epidemics in Congo, the Philippines, and Afghanistan are all linked to Gates’ vaccines. By 2018, ¾ of global polio cases were from Gates’ vaccines.

In 2014, the Gates Foundation funded tests of experimental HPV vaccines, developed by GSK and Merck, on 23,000 young girls in remote Indian provinces.

Approximately 1,200 suffered severe side effects, including autoimmune and fertility disorders.

Seven died. Indian government investigations charged that Gates funded researchers committed pervasive ethical violations: pressuring vulnerable village girls into the trial, bullying parents, forging consent forms, and refusing medical care to the injured girls.

The case is now in the country’s Supreme Court.

In 2010, the Gates Foundation funded a trial of a GSK’s experimental malaria vaccine, killing 151 African infants and causing serious adverse effects including paralysis, seizure, and febrile convulsions to 1,048 of the 5,049 children.

During Gates 2002 MenAfriVac Campaign in Sub-Saharan Africa, Gates operatives forcibly vaccinated thousands of African children against meningitis.

Between 50-500 children developed paralysis. South African newspapers complained, “We are guinea pigs for drug makers.” Nelson Mandela’s former Senior Economist, Professor Patrick Bond, describes Gates’ philanthropic practises as “ruthless” and immoral”.

In 2010, Gates committed $ 10 billion to the WHO promising to reduce population, in part, through new vaccines. A month later Gates told a Ted Talk that new vaccines “could reduce population”.

In 2014, Kenya’s Catholic Doctors Association accused the WHO of chemically sterilizing millions of unwilling Kenyan women with a phoney “tetanus” vaccine campaign.

Independent labs found the sterility formula in every vaccine tested. After denying the charges, WHO finally admitted it had been developing the sterility vaccines for over a decade.

Similar accusations came from Tanzania, Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines.

A 2017 study (Morgensen et.Al.2017) showed that WHO’s popular DTP is killing more African than the disease it pretends to prevent. Vaccinated girls suffered 10x the death rate of unvaccinated children.

Gates and the WHO refused to recall the lethal vaccine which WHO forces upon millions of African children annually.

Global public health advocates around the world accuse Gates of – hijacking WHO’s agenda away from the projects that are proven to curb infectious diseases; clean water, hygiene, nutrition and economic development.

They say he has diverted agency resources to serve his personal fetish – that good health only comes in a syringe.

In addition to using his philanthropy to control WHO, UNICEF, GAVI and PATH, Gates funds private pharmaceutical companies that manufacture vaccines, and a massive network of pharmaceutical -industry front groups that broadcast deceptive propaganda, develop fraudulent studies, conduct surveillance and psychological operations against vaccine hesitancy and use Gates’ power and money to silence dissent and coerce compliance.

In this recent nonstop Pharmedia appearances, Gates appears gleeful that the Covid-19 crisis will give him the opportunity to force his third-world vaccine programs on American children.”

An interesting interview 

 

 

 

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On 17/04/2020 at 9:04 PM, NewConvert said:

Glad you weren't voting during WWII - we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them in the fields or until our budget forecast becomes too dire.

Well lucky that ww2 is nothing like a pandemic.

On 18/04/2020 at 11:15 AM, jw1739 said:

I'd be interested to know how much value you place on a human life. And whether there's a sliding scale rather like the insured value of a motor vehicle. 

I certainly don't have the answers to what we're facing, and indeed although I am self-isolating because of age I think some of the restrictions are ludicrous - for example, a parent not allowed to give a learner-driver some "experience hours" - I would have thought a period of low traffic volume would be ideal for giving a learner more confidence in handling the car.

I also think that the statistics are being poorly reported. For example, the graphs repeatedly show Victoria as having 1,300-odd cases. What's not mentioned is that over 1,100 of those have recovered, and the remainder are either in self-isolation, isolation, hospital or have died. There are not 1,300-odd cases wandering around the community infecting thousands of other people. Every time a new case is detected action is taken to try to prevent that case infecting others.

Of course there are still cases that have not been detected, but I don't think that the situation is as bad here as pure numbers are suggesting. What I do think is that every effort should be made to eliminate the virus from Australia, because it is not morally defensible to go for an alternative solution that will likely condemn a number of people, mostly in a particular demographic, to death.

That's the whole point JW, that there is value in human life. I don't want anyone to die, but if it comes down to 100 people or 1000 then its a pretty clear choice in my opinion.

I get people tend to be a bit dismissive of the economic impact with respect to money and wealth, but there is no doubt whatsoever that when the economy crashes people do die; its just tends to be far more drawn out and ugly, and that its nearly always the poor that cop the worst of it. So yeh sure, they official cause might be suicide or drug overdose or some other medical condition that comes as result of not being able to look after oneself, and the cause is always a mixture of things so it can become hard to quantify that x did y, but you only have to look at life expectancy v the health of an economy to understand there is a clear correlation there.

I want to reiterate that i dont want anyone to die, and im not advocating that we lift the restrictions and be done with them, but any suggestion that i value money more than human life is wrong and to be honest, a big fuck you to anyone that suggests thats the case.

I'm questioning what causes the least carnage overall, because its all linked at the end of the day.

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6 minutes ago, bt50 said:

Well lucky that ww2 is nothing like a pandemic.

That's the whole point JW, that there is value in human life. I don't want anyone to die, but if it comes down to 100 people or 1000 then its a pretty clear choice in my opinion.

I get people tend to be a bit dismissive of the economic impact with respect to money and wealth, but there is no doubt whatsoever that when the economy crashes people do die; its just tends to be far more drawn out and ugly, and that its nearly always the poor that cop the worst of it. So yeh sure, they official cause might be suicide or drug overdose or some other medical condition that comes as result of not being able to look after oneself, and the cause is always a mixture of things so it can become hard to quantify that x did y, but you only have to look at life expectancy v the health of an economy to understand there is a clear correlation there.

I want to reiterate that i dont want anyone to die, and im not advocating that we lift the restrictions and be done with them, but any suggestion that i value money more than human life is wrong and to be honest, a big fuck you to anyone that suggests thats the case.

I'm questioning what causes the least carnage overall, because its all linked at the end of the day.

Indeed. We need to be pragmatic and kind. These kinds of calculations make many people uncomfortable but it’s a necessary part of managing an economy and it happens all the time. It just comes to the fore in emergencies when the trade-off is stark.

Here’s a good article about this discussion. Written by an economist and looks at NZ’s approach, but still relevant to us. 

https://theconversation.com/protecting-lives-and-livelihoods-the-data-on-why-new-zealand-should-relax-its-coronavirus-lockdown-from-thursday-136242

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I was thinking the state government needs to think about mental health more. Stop banning random shit that doesn’t spread the virus but will help people’s mental state. By this I mean:

golf

fishing

driving around incl lessons

driving to exercise 

probably some other similar stuff I don’t know specifically of.

Will help to reduce the coming mental health tsunami.

 

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47 minutes ago, Shahanga said:

I was thinking the state government needs to think about mental health more. Stop banning random shit that doesn’t spread the virus but will help people’s mental state. By this I mean:

golf

fishing

driving around incl lessons

driving to exercise 

probably some other similar stuff I don’t know specifically of.

Will help to reduce the coming mental health tsunami.

I fully support a lock-down to try and stop this virus in its tracks. Viruses are half-way between the living and the non-living - they can't persist without host cells in which to reproduce. Remove the cells - the virus peters out quite quickly.

But I fully agree with your comments. Go for the big hits where you get the most result.

For people doing their 120 hours driving practice, I would have thought now, with less traffic, is an ideal time.

The distance isn't specified, but apparently it's an offence to go "too far" for a couple to drive to a beach, sit in the car and eat the lunch they've brought with them.

Instead of these silly rules, come down heavy on people who don't observe the physical distance restriction - still plenty of them. And people who find it necessary to exercise their dogs on suburban shopping strips during shopping hours. Mostly DINKS by the look of them.

Fortunately I live in an old-fashioned suburban house with a good-sized garden, and I also have a proper workbench and some basic tools and plenty to do around the place. Apartment and unit living, and people living by themselves - they are really going to suffer as the time goes by.

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9 hours ago, bt50 said:

Well lucky that ww2 is nothing like a pandemic.

That's the whole point JW, that there is value in human life. I don't want anyone to die, but if it comes down to 100 people or 1000 then its a pretty clear choice in my opinion.

I get people tend to be a bit dismissive of the economic impact with respect to money and wealth, but there is no doubt whatsoever that when the economy crashes people do die; its just tends to be far more drawn out and ugly, and that its nearly always the poor that cop the worst of it. So yeh sure, they official cause might be suicide or drug overdose or some other medical condition that comes as result of not being able to look after oneself, and the cause is always a mixture of things so it can become hard to quantify that x did y, but you only have to look at life expectancy v the health of an economy to understand there is a clear correlation there.

I want to reiterate that i dont want anyone to die, and im not advocating that we lift the restrictions and be done with them, but any suggestion that i value money more than human life is wrong and to be honest, a big fuck you to anyone that suggests thats the case.

I'm questioning what causes the least carnage overall, because its all linked at the end of the day.

The most salient point is "hard to quantify that x did y". No one is denying that life expectancy is not related to a societies well being as long as the distribution of wealth is reasonable. Two examples: every book I have read state that in ancient Rome when Augustus became emperor the life expectancy at birth was 21 but if they survive past puberty life expectancy jumped to either 40 or 60 depending on your source. The second example is Haiti, one of the poorest countries on earth - if you are part of the 1% in Haitian society your life expectancy is 1st world, if you are not then your life expectancy is just above 40. So 2000 years apart and not much difference between those two societies. Life expectancy can be attributable to a rather large number of things. And economic well being can also be attributed to a rather large number of things. That is why reading economic history and history in general is rather important. Oh and as my GP pointed out, life expectancy keeps on increasing because infant mortality rate keeps on dropping (although he and I have had a rather genial discussion on this).

You are right that the poor keeps on copping it but that would have been the case. I note that as soon as the middle classes became unemployed the Prime Minister thought that  Newstart had to be immediately doubled otherwise people may soon realise that Newstart ain't much chop.

And for someone who lived through the Malcolm Fraser/John Howard mass unemployment period in the late 1970s and then through Keating's recession that we had to have, people are more resilient than what you give them credit for. And no I don't go for the bullshit of wellness - I am of the keep the stiff upper lip type of bloke.

Actually, Australia is a rather good place to be in. As the Economist pointed out in 2011 after Chile had been hit by the then largest earthquake/tsunami combination in 2010 topped by Japan's earthquake and tsunami on March 11, 2011 and Haiti's earthquake in 2011, once a country gets to certain levels of wealth, they recover faster. Chile lost 19% of GDP in less than 30  minutes, Japan lost industry and 28 thousand people, yet by 2015, no one would have known that they had had such tremendous seismic activity. Yet over in Haiti with an earthquake of 7 they lost 200k people and they still haven't rebuilt. Australia has enormous wealth, an educated population and sufficient space to overcome the current travails. Whether we have teh political class capable of delivering is what I have doubts on.

As for you taking offence, I suggest that you read your original post and you will see why some on this forum raised an eyebrow at your statement.

6 hours ago, Shahanga said:

I was thinking the state government needs to think about mental health more. Stop banning random shit that doesn’t spread the virus but will help people’s mental state. By this I mean:

golf

fishing

driving around incl lessons

driving to exercise 

probably some other similar stuff I don’t know specifically of.

Will help to reduce the coming mental health tsunami.

 

I would almost agree with you but then marketing kicks in. Keep it simple stupid did not appear out of thing air, it came out of observation of teh general public behaviour. And of course there is the old chestnut - no one ever went poor by underestimating the stupidity of the general public.

On a more general note what the PM should have stated that Australia is a modern, complex successful society because we allow people the freedom to learn, work and play as best suits them with only general rules to follow. As such it is impossible to list all the possible activities that people engage in and to the limits that these can be conducted during the lockdown period. Follow the principles outlined in the policies and then you will be fine. The police should be more discreet and leniency shown in certain cases. There is a major difference being in car having driving lessons with the person you live with as opposed to having a birthday party for an eight year old.

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11 hours ago, NewConvert said:

The most salient point is "hard to quantify that x did y". No one is denying that life expectancy is not related to a societies well being as long as the distribution of wealth is reasonable. Two examples: every book I have read state that in ancient Rome when Augustus became emperor the life expectancy at birth was 21 but if they survive past puberty life expectancy jumped to either 40 or 60 depending on your source. The second example is Haiti, one of the poorest countries on earth - if you are part of the 1% in Haitian society your life expectancy is 1st world, if you are not then your life expectancy is just above 40. So 2000 years apart and not much difference between those two societies. Life expectancy can be attributable to a rather large number of things. And economic well being can also be attributed to a rather large number of things. That is why reading economic history and history in general is rather important. Oh and as my GP pointed out, life expectancy keeps on increasing because infant mortality rate keeps on dropping (although he and I have had a rather genial discussion on this).

You are right that the poor keeps on copping it but that would have been the case. I note that as soon as the middle classes became unemployed the Prime Minister thought that  Newstart had to be immediately doubled otherwise people may soon realise that Newstart ain't much chop.

And for someone who lived through the Malcolm Fraser/John Howard mass unemployment period in the late 1970s and then through Keating's recession that we had to have, people are more resilient than what you give them credit for. And no I don't go for the bullshit of wellness - I am of the keep the stiff upper lip type of bloke.

Actually, Australia is a rather good place to be in. As the Economist pointed out in 2011 after Chile had been hit by the then largest earthquake/tsunami combination in 2010 topped by Japan's earthquake and tsunami on March 11, 2011 and Haiti's earthquake in 2011, once a country gets to certain levels of wealth, they recover faster. Chile lost 19% of GDP in less than 30  minutes, Japan lost industry and 28 thousand people, yet by 2015, no one would have known that they had had such tremendous seismic activity. Yet over in Haiti with an earthquake of 7 they lost 200k people and they still haven't rebuilt. Australia has enormous wealth, an educated population and sufficient space to overcome the current travails. Whether we have teh political class capable of delivering is what I have doubts on.

As for you taking offence, I suggest that you read your original post and you will see why some on this forum raised an eyebrow at your statement.

I would almost agree with you but then marketing kicks in. Keep it simple stupid did not appear out of thing air, it came out of observation of teh general public behaviour. And of course there is the old chestnut - no one ever went poor by underestimating the stupidity of the general public.

On a more general note what the PM should have stated that Australia is a modern, complex successful society because we allow people the freedom to learn, work and play as best suits them with only general rules to follow. As such it is impossible to list all the possible activities that people engage in and to the limits that these can be conducted during the lockdown period. Follow the principles outlined in the policies and then you will be fine. The police should be more discreet and leniency shown in certain cases. There is a major difference being in car having driving lessons with the person you live with as opposed to having a birthday party for an eight year old.

My original post asked a question and how one would deal with that dilemma. You and JW assumed a viewpoint of mine that didnt exist.
My line of offence is solely at being accused of placing wealth before life, which is horseshit.

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3 hours ago, bt50 said:

My original post asked a question and how one would deal with that dilemma. You and JW assumed a viewpoint of mine that didnt exist.
My line of offence is solely at being accused of placing wealth before life, which is horseshit.

You  didn't quite say that, but you did say, IIRC, that if the decision would result in 100 or 1000 deaths then whether the decision should be taken or not was fairly well "clearcut." (I can't find your original post, so that's paraphrasing.) That's close to an opinion I would say.

But I'm not fussed over the remark, nor did I take any offence. This is where we are free to discuss such matters, and usually Forum members end up largely agreeing with each other.

Seems like the elimination view is gathering some support. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-21/coronavirus-elimination-viable-option-victoria-cho-brett-sutton/12166956

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On 21/04/2020 at 12:24 PM, jw1739 said:

You  didn't quite say that, but you did say, IIRC, that if the decision would result in 100 or 1000 deaths then whether the decision should be taken or not was fairly well "clearcut." (I can't find your original post, so that's paraphrasing.) That's close to an opinion I would say.

But I'm not fussed over the remark, nor did I take any offence. This is where we are free to discuss such matters, and usually Forum members end up largely agreeing with each other.

Seems like the elimination view is gathering some support. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-21/coronavirus-elimination-viable-option-victoria-cho-brett-sutton/12166956

No, my original post was this;

Elimination at what cost though? The longer we keep these measures in place, the further into debt the government and economy go and the more severe the recession/depression. Indirectly that will see suicides, homelessness, poverty and drug use skyrocket and potentially you kill more people than you save. I'm certainly not suggesting its a black and white distinction, but i think we need to be very, very careful we don't end up with a cure worse than the disease.

I think quite clearly I'm asking the question of at what cost are you prepared to 'eliminate' the virus, making mention of the side-effects that come into play by doing so. The only opinion i'm expressing is the need for careful thought when dealing with the situation at hand.

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4 hours ago, Harrison said:

Well if this isn’t proof that the whole thing is a hoax, I don’t know what is. A masked guy standing in an equipment room of a hospital somewhere in a southern US state talking about a fake virus that’s ‘killed’ only 177,000 people. Wake the fuck up people.

The smoking gun comes at 11:40 in the video. This brave doctor/therapist says ‘this is a deep state, Illuminati stuff.’ 

True courage. Watch him go missing now. Probably already happened. The video cuts off right before he is about to blow the lid off the ‘vaccination’ hoax too. Suspicious.

I’m betting all of my money on him turning up dead on the shore of one of Bill Gates’ islands. 

The whole thing is a set up, and as a medical scientist I totally agree with everything this guy is saying due to what I observe on a daily basis.

There is no virus, there are no deaths, there is no scientific proof that this pandemic is real and it all points to an agenda on a scale that the world has never seen before, that is, a propaganda machine that instills fear so that citizens blindly accept whatever the government is offering.

Wake up!

The UN and WHO has used China over the last 50 years to refine the blueprints for the NWO through the Chinese Communist Party, and what you are witnessing is their attempt to take away your human rights and enslave you physically and spiritually.

There is a silent war going on and there is a strong resistant fighting against this move, hence all the high profile arrests/deaths around the world, all the human and child trafficking cartels being brought down on a daily basis.

Don't be blinded by the MSM, the morons in the media and film/music industry, and Communist Left in this country and around the world, they are all part of it and hence the unrelenting propaganda.

Don't give up your human rights.

Assume that everything you understand is wrong and look at the world with a renewed mind (No preconceived bias) as you will see more clearly so to establish truth.

Please take the time to watch this video as it will help you further understand the things the way they truly are.

 

On 19/04/2020 at 6:53 PM, HeartFc said:

Ye I know about Bill Gates and his dodgy vaccines

And he is coming after you and your family if he gets his way.

Make no mistake.

 

29 minutes ago, bt50 said:

I think quite clearly I'm asking the question of at what cost are you prepared to 'eliminate' the virus, making mention of the side-effects that come into play by doing so. The only opinion i'm expressing is the need for careful thought when dealing with the situation at hand.

The

Fake propaganda is the virus

and

Fear is the sickness.

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