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9 hours ago, jw1739 said:

To my knowledge, most changes of this type are grandfathered.

Not at all. From recollection Hawke/Keating introduced the FBT, the pension assets tests, the dismissal of negative gearing (only for them to bring it back because of a forthcoming NSW election) and a whole raft of measures without any grandfathering. Ditto Howard as Treasurer and as PM. So history will show that grandfathering does not happen as often as people think that it does and I am against the grandfathering clauses because the question is when do you end the grandfather period? The worst case was when Whitlam introduced the wool buying scheme as a five year program to help the farmers adjust to the UK entering the EU. It was finally killed in 1993 when Treasury warned that within a decade Australia would have to apply for loans to cope with the payments to the farming community (in other words Oz was going to go broke). So how did a 5 year program last so long? Well you know farmers, salt of the earth, needed more time, and election after election they got more time. It took about 20 years for the Government's stockpile of poor quality wool to be disposed of. So were there that many farmers? On paper there were, but if you went to any country town you would have seen one or two sheep in any front yard. This qualified them as farmers with a guaranteed sale of the wool - irrespective of the quality. So for me to accept a grandfather clause the reasons must be huge because it will always be grandfather time.

4 hours ago, bt50 said:

Tbh i think the most humorous part is that if they were to bring it in, they'd likely cause house prices up even further as more people look to invest there.

All Bill had to do was sit there and shut up and he was going to be PM. He's fucked it up monumentally with one of the worst tax policies to hit modern Australia in any serious fashion. 

Not sure on the premises you state. First there is nothing to suggest that the SMSF are not investing in real estate so that they can have negative gearing and the tax credit. Secondly, given that the whole program was expected to cost about $850M a year today instead of billions, meant that Treasury has already looked at the figures and at one stage Morrison was closely looking at its introduction. So to me that could also mean that if after the election tempers calm down, then a bipartisan proposal will get up. politically it does not look good but I suspect that eventually it will come off as the budget will go deeper into the red without this rort being reduced.

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16 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Not at all. From recollection Hawke/Keating introduced the FBT, the pension assets tests, the dismissal of negative gearing (only for them to bring it back because of a forthcoming NSW election) and a whole raft of measures without any grandfathering. Ditto Howard as Treasurer and as PM. So history will show that grandfathering does not happen as often as people think that it does and I am against the grandfathering clauses because the question is when do you end the grandfather period? The worst case was when Whitlam introduced the wool buying scheme as a five year program to help the farmers adjust to the UK entering the EU. It was finally killed in 1993 when Treasury warned that within a decade Australia would have to apply for loans to cope with the payments to the farming community (in other words Oz was going to go broke). So how did a 5 year program last so long? Well you know farmers, salt of the earth, needed more time, and election after election they got more time. It took about 20 years for the Government's stockpile of poor quality wool to be disposed of. So were there that many farmers? On paper there were, but if you went to any country town you would have seen one or two sheep in any front yard. This qualified them as farmers with a guaranteed sale of the wool - irrespective of the quality. So for me to accept a grandfather clause the reasons must be huge because it will always be grandfather time.

Not sure on the premises you state. First there is nothing to suggest that the SMSF are not investing in real estate so that they can have negative gearing and the tax credit. Secondly, given that the whole program was expected to cost about $850M a year today instead of billions, meant that Treasury has already looked at the figures and at one stage Morrison was closely looking at its introduction. So to me that could also mean that if after the election tempers calm down, then a bipartisan proposal will get up. politically it does not look good but I suspect that eventually it will come off as the budget will go deeper into the red without this rort being reduced.

The franking credit refund isnt a rort though, it's ensuring the individual is paying the correct amount of tax, and is duly refunded their franking credits (pre-paid tax if you like). 

Re housing prices ; To keep it simple; if people's dividend returns are being slashed by 30%, then they'll invest in an alternative with a better return. This is likely to be in the property market. More demand with the same supply means prices go up. SMSF are not the only investors in shares; there's plenty of individuals too.
Look if people think the rich or middle class should be paying more tax then fair enough, lets have that discussion and look at income tax rates. Backdooring everyone, esp low to middle income earners via a franking credit theft isnt the fair way to go about.

No that i support it either, but at least scrapping negative gearing made sense.

Edited by bt50
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1 hour ago, bt50 said:

The franking credit refund isnt a rort though, it's ensuring the individual is paying the correct amount of tax, and is duly refunded their franking credits (pre-paid tax if you like). 

Re housing prices ; To keep it simple; if people's dividend returns are being slashed by 30%, then they'll invest in an alternative with a better return. This is likely to be in the property market. More demand with the same supply means prices go up. SMSF are not the only investors in shares; there's plenty of individuals too.
Look if people think the rich or middle class should be paying more tax then fair enough, lets have that discussion and look at income tax rates. Backdooring everyone, esp low to middle income earners via a franking credit theft isnt the fair way to go about.

No that i support it either, but at least scrapping negative gearing made sense.

the definition of franking credits was expanded by Howard (read Peter Costello's book) which is what has taken its toll on the budget. When the mining taxes were flowing it was easy but since many more started using this option and the mining taxes are returning to a long term average then this is whats causing the budget blow out. So maybe as a start lets return to earlier definition.

Personally, I don't think that the taxation issues will be resolved soon because of the current crop of MPs. Howard/Peacock may not have agreed with Hawke/Keating but they did not block measures - ditto when Howard became PM ALP Senator Robert Ray stared down the ALP by saying that Howard should be allowed to govern. That broke down post Howard and until that gets resolved not much will happen.

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3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

the definition of franking credits was expanded by Howard (read Peter Costello's book) which is what has taken its toll on the budget. When the mining taxes were flowing it was easy but since many more started using this option and the mining taxes are returning to a long term average then this is whats causing the budget blow out. So maybe as a start lets return to earlier definition.

Personally, I don't think that the taxation issues will be resolved soon because of the current crop of MPs. Howard/Peacock may not have agreed with Hawke/Keating but they did not block measures - ditto when Howard became PM ALP Senator Robert Ray stared down the ALP by saying that Howard should be allowed to govern. That broke down post Howard and until that gets resolved not much will happen.

I feel like you only recently learned what franking credits are. Howard didn't change or expand the definition of franking credits, but I wouldn't expect you to understand the distinction. 

The plan is a bit of an issue in that it does increase compliance costs for small businesses (ordinary meaning not legislative meaning) that take profits as dividends as opposed to paying wages.

Imo three better options imo would be.

1. Make dividends deductible with no franking credits - this has the issue of hurting pensioners/self funded retirees, however the respective tax savings would allow for greater cash dividends to be paid.

2. Make dividends non refundable carry forward tax offsets - this is imo is only slightly better than Shortens proposal, but not by much. Still hurts pensioners etc.

3. Overhaul how super funds entitlement to franking credits (lets be honest this is the area Shorten is really attacking). 

(a) super funds using segregated assets method to calculate ECPI then the franking credits received on those segregated assets should not be claimable in any way (the income is exempt so why should they get the benefit of the credits).

(b) super funds using the unsegregated assets method to calculate ECPI should only have entitlement to offset tax using franking credits in proprtion to the fund's actuary percentage.

 

Imo the third option is the best as it still protects small business owners and self refunded retirees and the rationale behind disallowing a super fund a credit attached to exempt income is quite logical and can hardly be though of as unfair.

In respect to grandfathering this won't affect super funds in accumulation mode and for funds using segregated assets method their is no issue with selling those shares (with gains exempt) and changing strategy with only minor costs being in brokerage, though admittedly issues with finding alternative investments and a few otherissues, but i dont feel this are great enough to not close off this loop hole.

Edited by malloy
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There will be significant impacts on Super Funds in pension mode and on retirees whose incomes are at least partially derived from dividends. Also, in private industry, it's not as if superannuation is just a free benefit provided by the employer. The funds are contributory and in many cases employees have been encouraged to salary-sacrifice to boost their super package and have done so.

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15 minutes ago, jw1739 said:

There will be significant impacts on Super Funds in pension mode and on retirees whose incomes are at least partially derived from dividends. Also, in private industry, it's not as if superannuation is just a free benefit provided by the employer. The funds are contributory and in many cases employees have been encouraged to salary-sacrifice to boost their super package and have done so.

And those salary sacrificed conttibutions have been made at a tax benefit to the employee along with the earnings on capital employed inside the fund. Furthermore in pension mode the income on assets used to support income streams is exempt and the income streams are exempt in the hands of the taxpayer so its not like the changes I proposed in point 3 above will change any of that (and niether will Shorten's proposal). 

The imputation system is designed to avoid double taxation (which I agree with), however there is no double taxation whatsoever when the dividends received are exempt income. So why should a superfund be entitled to a credit to avoid double taxation when the income isn't even assessable.

I genuinely hate politics of envy and Shorten constantly trying to just over tax those who are perceived to be wealthy or those who are wealthy, but when you have a blatant loophole like this I am not against trying to fix it in the best way possible.

I am, though, genuinely concerned with how Shorten plans to implement his version.

Furthermore I do understand that you are the trustee of an SMSF (and quite possibly drawing a pension from it or if not then being close to doing so) so its a little closer to home for you than it is for me.

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19 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

"white privilege" is the new original sin. The lefties have just reached into the Catholic churches play book on power dynamics 

The Circle of Life. 

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Edited by bt50
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Yesterday I got called a "Peasant" and "Leftist Scum"... pretty funny for some of the older posters around here.

Anyway it occurred because some sixty year old loser kept ear bashing us from a neighboring table for 20 minutes at a Cafe about how the Country's Health Care System was fucked solely because: "They just let any old (Insert Three Racist Words for Refugees from the Middle East/West Africa/Sub Cont) into the Country all of them riddled with Disease.

Eventually my Wife and I basically told him to shut up (He was not finishing anytime soon) and he went nuts up like a 68 year old MV Wannabe Hool launched into his rebuttal... TBH our own rebuttal about not being Peasants was pretty funny.

Anyway I no fan of SJW and the Left Leaning Media but when you see one of these real nasty types in action - They are so much worse its ridiculous.

Edited by cadete
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6 hours ago, cadete said:

Yesterday I got called a "Peasant" and "Leftist Scum"... pretty funny for some of the older posters around here.

Anyway it occurred because some sixty year old loser kept ear bashing us from a neighboring table for 20 minutes at a Cafe about how the Country's Health Care System was fucked solely because: "They just let any old (Insert Three Racist Words for Refugees from the Middle East/West Africa/Sub Cont) into the Country all of them riddled with Disease.

Eventually my Wife and I basically told him to shut up (He was not finishing anytime soon) and he went nuts up like a 68 year old MV Wannabe Hool launched into his rebuttal... TBH our own rebuttal about not being Peasants was pretty funny.

Anyway I no fan of SJW and the Left Leaning Media but when you see one of these real nasty types in action - They are so much worse its ridiculous.

I've been accused by some in our fan base who don't use this forum of the same for not holding those views. Just because I think brown people are great doesn't make me a lefty. 

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20 minutes ago, thisphantomfortress said:

I've been accused by some in our fan base who don't use this forum of the same for not holding those views. Just because I think brown people are great doesn't make me a lefty. 

Bloody Identity Politics... where is it getting us? 

Fucken Nowhere, and the dumbest thing is that each side only thinks the other side is partaking in Identity Politics when they do the exact same thing and as they each sink lower and lower (Usually about shit that doesn't really matter) they point to the opposition to justify the crap they are sprouting. 

People blame Politicians in Canberra for everything right now and no doubt our last four PM's have not been great but they are working within a system based on Class Politics, as in the one that made England a first world nation and then us an even better first world nation.

Identity Politics has given us nothing beneficial to society that was not then achieved through the traditional process anyway .

Edited by cadete
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14 hours ago, thisphantomfortress said:

I've been accused by some in our fan base who don't use this forum of the same for not holding those views. Just because I think brown people are great doesn't make me a lefty. 

Actually brown people aren’t great.

they are just people.

Some of them are great, some of them are pricks. Just like non- brown people.

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13 hours ago, cadete said:

Bloody Identity Politics... where is it getting us? 

Fucken Nowhere, and the dumbest thing is that each side only thinks the other side is partaking in Identity Politics when they do the exact same thing and as they each sink lower and lower (Usually about shit that doesn't really matter) they point to the opposition to justify the crap they are sprouting. 

People blame Politicians in Canberra for everything right now and no doubt our last four PM's have not been great but they are working within a system based on Class Politics, as in the one that made England a first world nation and then us an even better first world nation.

Identity Politics has given us nothing beneficial to society that was not then achieved through the traditional process anyway .

Martin Luther King and Charles Perkins would disagree with you.

Although the bewildering amount of identities modern society can have is doing my head in but esentially all I see are white middle class kids who are basically dumb trying to make themselves appear intellectual. Marx had utter contempt for these kinds of people.

 

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15 hours ago, jw1739 said:

@cadete I'm never quite sure where you sit on the political spectrum.

I have always stated that I am right in the middle, if I had to use a descriptive word it be that I am a "Liberal" in the way FDR used the word.
Also I have posted several times on here that I am a pragmatist and dont make excuses for changing my opinion on things some times.

13 hours ago, malloy said:

Lol. He is on the left, but hates labor because he is catholic.

Both my Grandfathers were made to leave the ALP due to being Catholic prior to the DLP split so this influenced me greatly for many years into being a Progressive Socially Minded Liberal Voter in the Costello Camp. 

However, the ALP has become the Catholic Party once again with Shorten agreeing to reinstate funding to Catholic Schools, which will both win him the election, my vote and even my 90 year old Grandfather's vote.

4 hours ago, NewConvert said:

 

This is why it is quite amusing. He claims to be on thr right but when he expands on it he would probably sit where Paul Keating seats.

I have always said that in the UK I would have always been a Labor Voter... Paul Keating is a pretty adequate description (Catholic/Right of the ALP).

IMO the Liberal Party is no longer to what I believe should be the Center of Australian Politics and the Pinkos all vote Greens  (because they are too dumb its realize they are really giving their vote to the Libs) so now so for me the ALP under Shorten is really Australia's big chance to get back on track and away from the extremes.

3 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Martin Luther King and Charles Perkins would disagree with you.

Although the bewildering amount of identities modern society can have is doing my head in but esentially all I see are white middle class kids who are basically dumb trying to make themselves appear intellectual. Marx had utter contempt for these kinds of people.

 

Isolated examples of Great Men from another time and TBH on Martin Luther King - It was Lyndon Johnson that did the most work for Black Rights in the sixties.

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4 hours ago, NewConvert said:

Martin Luther King and Charles Perkins would disagree with you.

Although the bewildering amount of identities modern society can have is doing my head in but esentially all I see are white middle class kids who are basically dumb trying to make themselves appear intellectual. Marx had utter contempt for these kinds of people.

 

Tbf not sure Marx is a person that many people in Western society rate as a benchmark of sophisticated thinking and moral virtue.

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1 hour ago, bt50 said:

Tbf not sure Marx is a person that many people in Western society rate as a benchmark of sophisticated thinking and moral virtue.

What?

I rate Marx as one of the more sophisticated thinkers of the world in the past 500 years, and I despise "Marxism" (Sorry Antifa these days) more than anyone.

I am not saying he was right about things... but his contribution to philosophy and academia cant be denied.

Edited by cadete
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Just now, cadete said:

What?

I rate Marx as one of the more sophisticated thinkers of the world in the past 500 years, and I despise "Marxism" (Sorry Antifa these days) more than anyone.

And you're quite right in many aspects. What i'm suggesting is that Marxism, and as a consequence Marx, are very poorly thought of in Western society by the majority due to the catastrophic consequences of its implementation in the 20th century and as such, is not a terrific measuring stick for measuring morality.

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22 hours ago, cadete said:

I have always stated that I am right in the middle, if I had to use a descriptive word it be that I am a "Liberal" in the way FDR used the word.
Also I have posted several times on here that I am a pragmatist and dont make excuses for changing my opinion on things some times.

Both my Grandfathers were made to leave the ALP due to being Catholic prior to the DLP split so this influenced me greatly for many years into being a Progressive Socially Minded Liberal Voter in the Costello Camp. 

However, the ALP has become the Catholic Party once again with Shorten agreeing to reinstate funding to Catholic Schools, which will both win him the election, my vote and even my 90 year old Grandfather's vote.

I have always said that in the UK I would have always been a Labor Voter... Paul Keating is a pretty adequate description (Catholic/Right of the ALP).

IMO the Liberal Party is no longer to what I believe should be the Center of Australian Politics and the Pinkos all vote Greens  (because they are too dumb its realize they are really giving their vote to the Libs) so now so for me the ALP under Shorten is really Australia's big chance to get back on track and away from the extremes.

Isolated examples of Great Men from another time and TBH on Martin Luther King - It was Lyndon Johnson that did the most work for Black Rights in the sixties.

You are not the only Liberal leaning person who thinks the same. I have two friends who are of the same belief. However, I don't think that it is as deep seated a problem - certainly in Victoria we don't have the crap that NSW and Qld. (Bernie Finn being the exception). A lot will hinge on the federal election and who survives in the coalition.

The reason I gave MLK as an example was because last week was teh anniversary of his assassination. I always add Charles Perkins as well. The other reason I mentioned him was because he was never part of the legislative process. This is a parallel with so many of the SJW/Alt-Right mob. They make a lot noise but when it comes to legislative power it is quite small. Even under Trump I can't see too many actual legislation but certainly lots of noise. This is in stark contrast to MLK/CP who argued strongly from outside the legislative process and changed the laws. Full marks to LBJ and the Kennedys and many others for following through but in the end they both needed each other.

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On 4/13/2018 at 11:04 PM, HeartFc said:

Not sure if srs.

Why?

Shorten has had control of the ALP for over eight years now which means we can have a PM who can make decisions with being scared of being knifed. I think most Australians agree this what something we are crying out for... the Libs have no such thing.

Then also what is the current Government giving us: A bloke to scared to stand up to a backbench he seem to be going further and further to the right wanting to cut funding as much as possible for things like Health and Education.

Also the current Government's economic record has hardly out performed that of the previous ALP Government - considering the conditions each Government dealt with... neither have been great the Libs can argue things are more stable now and the ALP can point point to the GFC.

And FWIW these days one the other your once traditional Far Left ALP Voter now throws their vote away for Communist Party for the Greens.

On 4/14/2018 at 7:57 AM, haz said:

This thread needs to be named to "Cadete's Politics"

On 4/14/2018 at 9:59 AM, jw1739 said:

As in "all over the place?"

Just because my politics dont perfectly fit into a Party Platform does not mean I am all over the place, Politics is not Football... it just largely a result of being a Centralist.

 

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11 minutes ago, cadete said:

Why?

Shorten has had control of the ALP for over eight years now which means we can have a PM who can make decisions with being scared of being knifed. I think most Australians agree this what something we are crying out for... the Libs have no such thing.

Then also what is the current Government giving us: A bloke to scared to stand up to a backbench he seem to be going further and further to the right wanting to cut funding as much as possible for things like Health and Education.

Also the current Government's economic record has hardly out performed that of the previous ALP Government - considering the conditions each Government dealt with... neither have been great the Libs can argue things are more stable now and the ALP can point point to the GFC.

And FWIW these days one the other your once traditional Far Left ALP Voter now throws their vote away for Communist Party for the Greens.

Just because my politics dont perfectly fit into a Party Platform does not mean I am all over the place, Politics is not Football... it just largely a result of being a Centralist.

 

Indeed, it shits me that a lot of people just become cheerleaders for a political party rather than actually assess the ideas, performances and policies on their merit.

The current government is fucking atrocious because theyre too spineless imo. I'm sure @cadete and I will probably disagree on the way he went about it, but at least when Abbott was in he was trying to fix the spending problem we so clearly have. Unfortunately, as is human nature, noone wants to be the one to make the sacrifice and cry blue murder when the cuts come citing another 'lesser cause'. And as a result  spending just goes up and you either needs to raise taxes, or improve the economy's growth to pay the bill. 

I can't stand Shorten, and i don't think the ALP will be any better than the current government when they get in, but it might be necessary for the Libs to wake up to themselves and start making the hard calls again.

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Sold out workers while union boos, spouts SJW platitudes and plays identity politics. Despite leading the right faction 10 years ago the guys as left leaning as the come now.  Its the fashion and Bill Shorten has all the latest gear. 

Btw explain this.... 

 

 

 

bill-shorten-dab-source-fitzy-and-whipa-facebook-671x377.jpg

54b7cb60a525119a778b6228.jpg

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9 hours ago, cadete said:

Just because my politics dont perfectly fit into a Party Platform does not mean I am all over the place, Politics is not Football... it just largely a result of being a Centralist.

 

Nah mate, I said the thread should be that name because you are the main contributor to it

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4 hours ago, HeartFc said:

Sold out workers while union boos, spouts SJW platitudes and plays identity politics. Despite leading the right faction 10 years ago the guys as left leaning as the come now.  Its the fashion and Bill Shorten has all the latest gear. 

Btw explain this.... 

 

 

 

bill-shorten-dab-source-fitzy-and-whipa-facebook-671x377.jpg

54b7cb60a525119a778b6228.jpg

The only thing Shorten stands for is himself.

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16 hours ago, HeartFc said:

Sold out workers while union boos, spouts SJW platitudes and plays identity politics. Despite leading the right faction 10 years ago the guys as left leaning as the come now.  Its the fashion and Bill Shorten has all the latest gear. 

Btw explain this.... 

 

 

 

bill-shorten-dab-source-fitzy-and-whipa-facebook-671x377.jpg

54b7cb60a525119a778b6228.jpg

I cant be bothered arguing against the statement that Bill Shorten is "As Left as they come" or... yeah I CBF.

12 hours ago, malloy said:

The only thing Shorten stands for is himself.

So we should re-elect Turnbull, because he has always been a party man and never an individualist and is running such a great Tight knit Government.

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I know a little about his political background after digging around so I understand why you CBF but my point is he doesn't stick to what he believes in. He has the capability to flip flop and go all the way to almost Greens levels on the spectrum. He talks like a fucking SJW when he gets the chance, its embarrassing.

The guy is a complete fraud, how anyone could possibly support that fkn slimy worm ill never know. The next 4 years are gonna be rough but ill take odds very short odds that shorten will be a one term PM and disappear when all that dirt comes out. 

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15 minutes ago, HeartFc said:

I know a little about his political background after digging around so I understand why you CBF but my point is he doesn't stick to what he believes in. He has the capability to flip flop and go all the way to almost Greens levels on the spectrum. He talks like a fucking SJW when he gets the chance, its embarrassing.

The guy is a complete fraud, how anyone could possibly support that fkn slimy worm ill never know. The next 4 years are gonna be rough but ill take odds very short odds that shorten will be a one term PM and disappear when all that dirt comes out. 

Got a good feeling the dirt will be out before the election 

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