YSIDE Eco/Pol Debate #46872

[malloy]

Apparently its only 5000 Lebanese dollars. $5 or so American... Around $4.50 Australian.

Honestly, we are over worked, under paid and charged through the Fucking roof for shit that is dirt cheap elsewhere.

...and people want to complain about customers buying stuff online!

rofl we are hardly underpaid in australia. we have one of the most expensive labour markets in the world....

wages is probably the biggest cost factor in everything we buy in australia...

[Tesla]

rofl we are hardly underpaid in australia. we have one of the most expensive labour markets in the world....

wages is probably the biggest cost factor in everything we buy in australia...

This. You cant really complain about how high our costs are and then complain about wages being low, as the reason our costs are so high in this country is because wages are so high. The other factor in everything costing so much here is high taxes, but we need those high taxes because any infrastructure project the government tries to complete costs 10000000000000% more than in any other country because our tradies make more money than CEOs do in the majority of the world.

[malloy]

Plus the fact our living density is so low hence more roads for fewer ppl etc cost goverment more

[Deviant]

wtf is the point of going to uni. Become a chippy! lol

[malloy]

Fwiw our income taxes are somewhat offset by our significantly lower value added tax. I think it was paul keating when he was treasurer who wanted to lower taxes but have a high consumption tax. Which would be better in a way, but does fuck the whole supply and demand price setting in an active market

[Deviant]

What are you studying again?

[Braveheart]

because our tradies make more money than CEOs do in the majority of the world.

Which is bad why..?

Its about the perceived value of your Labour. In some European/Scandinavian countries secondary school teachers are remunerated to similar levels as Medical professionals and airline pilots. The perception of value for that profession is higher than in other places. In turn, the perceived value of Trade skills here is higher than in other nations, just as your inference that CEOs should be making vastly more than tradesmen is a perception not an absolute.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Braveheart

[malloy]

Lol. I think the unions have a fair bit more to do with it than perceived value.

[Deviant]

should change this thread title to 'the economics thread - btw australia play a game somewhere" lol

[Braveheart]

Lol. I think the unions have a fair bit more to do with it than perceived value.

EXACTLY. You've missed the whole point.

[cadete]

The reason tradies earn so much in Australia is because ppl who used go into the trade jobs now think that they can be things like Lawyers and Accountants. Its supply and demand fueled by Aussies who think they can pick their job like a pair of jeans.

I went to school with tons of blokes like this whose parents were cashed up from mining and refused to accept that they were wrong about their fucked up notion:

That because they sent their not very smart sons to a well known private school that meant they would instantly end up doing Law or Commerce at the Sandstone University in that state.

Smart Kents litterally Build Brand New Non-Religous Private Schools in growth areas to target this very stupid notion to make cash:

It is staggering when you compare some of these schools pathetic performances in getting kids into their desired University Courses.

Sometimes the local High School is litterally gets better results.

Yet people are fooled by a Big Gate and a Elite looking Blazer – And therefore believe that sending their kids to such a place is their spot in law at Melb Uni guaranteed.

So instead of doing trades these guys kept persisting to go down the white collar root and do TAFE courses in such topics.

Despite the fact that the ppl are doing such things straight off at Uni will be their competition for the jobs they apply for...

Another factor is the amount of courses Specific Vocational Course Universities offer these days for professions which hardly have any demand for workers. Journalism and Design courses being the obvious examples (I know as I fell for the first one).

The simple fact is kents are too picky with what they want to do – And this means we have too few doing the less glamorous jobs such as Trades and so we therefore end up with 30 year old Tradies in WA owning 3 houses, 4 cars and 18 jet skis and 35 Plasma TV’s.

It’s simple supply and demand.

[malloy]

EXACTLY. You've missed the whole point.

i know exactly what your point is and I didn't really explain my answer properly as i wanted to keep it short. N still cbf going into massive debate, but i will say that the way unions are set up at the moment they are a plague on the australian economy.

@deviate. I studied commerce/science degree majoring in accounting and chemistry respectively

[malloy]

@BH its also not really that we value them more. It is that when a union sees for example a mining company making huge profits they want the workers to get paid more. Which is a joke on multiple levels. You dont see unions offering to have workers take a pay cut if companies take a loss one year. My mate is in WA on a mining project atm and he said unions have sent in undrcover union agents to try cause dissent to try and get a pay rise because of the huge profits that have been reprted. They are abusing their position of power just to be greedy.

And b4 anyone says they should get a share of the profits.. No they shouldnt they get paid for the work they do they dont take the risks in financing projects and they dont take any financial responsibilities for losses

[cadete]

@BH its also not really that we value them more. It is that when a union sees for example a mining company making huge profits they want the workers to get paid more. Which is a joke on multiple levels. You dont see unions offering to have workers take a pay cut if companies take a loss one year. My mate is in WA on a mining project atm and he said unions have sent in undrcover union agents to try cause dissent to try and get a pay rise because of the huge profits that have been reprted. They are abusing their position of power just to be greedy.

And b4 anyone says they should get a share of the profits.. No they shouldnt they get paid for the work they do they dont take the risks in financing projects and they dont take any financial responsibilities for losses

I tend to agree on Malloy with unions...

I say this as a former member of union for a number of years from a young age – But they had a purpose and they served it and now halt progress many than anything else.

I struggle to understand their relevancy anymore.

The working class for the most part became a part of the middle class by the 80’s in Australia and the Unions deserve a lot of credit for achievement.

In the Western World things have not played out as Marx said, the Democratic Socialist Parties and the Union Movement saw to it that the workers got what they deserved and joined the middle class.

And once the workers became middle class, they did not hold onto their Working Class roots and form collectives to discuss Marxist Literature and Brutalist Architecture they became like the Middle Class and spent their cash on cars and BBQ’s.

The problem is the Unions do not want to accept this achievement has occurred as it works against them, their mates and family having jobs and making money created by the whole Union Movement .

So they pretend there is a Working Class out there that needs them.

They even refuse to accept that the increasing amounts year after year of those who working the jobs once labelled “Blue Collar: workers who simply do not see the need to join their organisations as verification that the Union Movement has done its job and run its course.

The facts don’t lie – People don’t want to pay for help they don’t need.

John Howard’s mass appeal in the West of Sydney did not lie about the death of Working Class either.

Edited August 16, 2012 by cadete

[Braveheart]

I struggle to understand their relevancy anymore.

The facts don’t lie – People don’t want to pay for help they don’t need.

You only have to go back to the waterfront dispute where balaclava sporting mercenaries wielding Rottwiellers and as recently as 2005 with the Workchoices battle that brought down a government.

The argument re:Union relevancy was also strong in the relative times of plenty(worldwide) during the early to mid 2000's because their is scope for people to debate their efficiency/relevance when their pay is full and job is safe. When times get tough or the Class Hawks come gunning the Australian Working Class HAVE and ALWAYS WILL be shielded by the Labour movement. Unapologetic in the defence of the conditions and entitlements won in the face of over a century and half of dogged and surreptitious attacks on the existence of the Australian Working Class.

The working class for the most part became a part of the middle class by the 80’s in Australia and the Unions deserve a lot of credit for achievement.

Agreed, but you have to remember that the Political voice of the Union Movement and Working Class in this country, the ALP, OPENLY campaigned for this. It was a key ideological goal of the ALP's(Gough's in particular) to drag the working class into a new economic strata of a large lower-Middle class by the 1980's.

So they pretend there is a Working Class out there that needs them.

We have vast tracts of both unskilled and lowly skilled workers in this country. They need representation to improve their conditions as SGN (Single Contract Negotiation) in these industries is incredibly inequitable due to the commonality of poor education, language skills and the Employer Dominance Principle.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Braveheart

[Braveheart]

And b4 anyone says they should get a share of the profits.. No they shouldnt they get paid for the work they do they dont take the risks in financing projects and they dont take any financial responsibilities for losses

Here's where the conversation can really not progress much further as I think it's pretty clear we have vastly different conceptions of risk, reward and value in the labour sphere. Finance is obviously the more valuable commodity to the market than life.

As;

• I see the blokes on the tools half a KM under ground with umpteen million tonnes of rock threatening to fall on their heads as a substantial risk and the physicality of the work is huge financial risk as serious injury is incredibly common in these roles.
  
• The financial responsibilities for losses come in the form of losing their livelihoods.
  

unions have sent in undrcover union agents to try cause dissent to try and get a pay rise because of the huge profits that have been reprted.

Sounds fucken FANTASTIC to me. Poor Rio Rinto

You dont see unions offering to have workers take a pay cut if companies take a loss one year.

So what you're saying is that one party is trying to maximise its stake at the expense of another? That seems rather familar..?

[cadete]

I knew he would bite...

BH, I cant wait for u to meet my middle brother as u guys are so similar I felt I was reading his articles just then.

[malloy]

So what you're saying is that one party is trying to maximise its stake at the expense of another? That seems rather familar..?

no im not saying one should maximise its profit at the expense of the other. the employee should be compensated at the same level regardless of how well or poor the company is performing, it shouldn't just all of a sudden change just because the company is making large profits, if it were to make a loss workers aren't going to all of a sudden start taking pay cuts to cover the short fall and in the particular case of mining companies large profits are generally offest by very very large start up and research + development phase costs

As;

• I see the blokes on the tools half a KM under ground with umpteen million tonnes of rock threatening to fall on their heads as a substantial risk and the physicality of the work is huge financial risk as serious injury is incredibly common in these roles.
  
• The financial responsibilities for losses come in the form of losing their livelihoods.
  

Yes they are taking risks aswell, but they are adequately compensated for it. if they weren't they wouldn't be over there. hence supply and demand, if the work was so dangerous that no one wanted to do it they would have to increase the wages being paid, which is what is happening over in WA (not just dangerous, but where the work is etc). You don't need Unions coming in because they have the power and try and take more. I'm not entirely against unions as I do agree that they serve a purpose though as I said before in their current format unions are a plague on the Australian economy

Edited August 16, 2012 by malloy

[Tesla]

Oorite chaps.

Let me tell you the beauty of both capitalism and democracy. They are both brilliant systems when you realise what the game is, accept it, and start to play. Basically the point of both of them is to fuck everybody else and go out and get yours.

Unions be playing the game well, fucking up the nation and economy for their own personal benefit and the benefit of their members. Any profession with licencing (eg electrician, plumber, accountant, lawyer), same shit. Dont get me started on CEOs, having fun with other peoples money lawl. Thats the game. Go out and get yours instead of debating whats right and whats wrong.

Real tawk.

[Braveheart]

Go out and get yours instead of debating whats right and whats wrong.

Real tawk.

Just because the system is currently what it is, that does not in turn make discussion and examination futile. In fact, it makes it even more essential.

“The world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.”

Albert Einstein

[cadete]

Love how Kents try to make out that YSIDE is ANTIFA and Left Wing - Yet 3 vs 1 in this thread are arguing against the point of Unions in today's Australia... :rolleyes:

Edited August 16, 2012 by cadete

[marteaux]

I'm learning a lot in here.